#28 - Tobi Emonts-Holley: Lessons on Leadership, Fitness, and Fatherhood (from a CEO with a 6-Pack and 7 Kids)

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 00:00

so one of the reasons I wanted to have you on obviously because I fucking love you and we're friends and shit, but, ⁓

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 00:00

Yep.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 00:12

You are probably one of the most inspirational people that one I've personally met, but in general that I've just sort of heard of. Okay. You basically went from like fresh off the boat or fresh off the plane, right?

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 00:29

Boat sounds sexier. Let's keep it at the boat. This rubber dinghy. Yeah.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 00:30

The immigrant story comes to me. Yeah. So for like,

you paddled your way all the way to Scotland from Germany, you paddled from Germany to Scotland. That is the story I'm sticking to. ⁓ But you started off as like a volunteer, but then worked your way up to CEO.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 00:42

This is exactly how it happens. Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah, agreed.

Yep.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 00:59

Can you walk me through that process?

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 01:03

Are we recording? I mean, are we doing is the episode the sit? We're doing it. I love how I love how relax this is. Now this beautiful. This is beautiful, Walk you through it. ⁓ Well, it's it's it's a hard one to just go. It's a hard one to just go with that because of all the other stuff that happened along the way that isn't necessarily tied to that particular journey. But if we're trying to just

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 01:07

Yeah. It's a soft lead in. I don't like the one, two, three go. It's like, let's just have a conversation.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 01:31

forget about everything else. The journey there would have been coming for a year, which was still part of ⁓ a civil service commitment that we had in Germany, where you either went to the military or you went and you did a social service ⁓ thing. So you could have gone military for like nine months or you do something for society for 12 months. That was kind of the choice. My choice for years, I was set on going to the Navy. That was like a thing.

But then, that's something that's probably quite important for me later on, is I had visited the UK a few times and I had this incredible gut pull towards the UK. Like I got completely obsessed with it. I would wake up on a Saturday morning and I would put on like 80s, just translation shows that would run once a week and they were cringe and they were rubbish.

but that was like my little glimpse into the UK. So I would wake up just to get a bit of like UK English because there was no internet, right? So I was really obsessed with that. And I kind of really thought, okay, well, I really would like to study in the UK because I realized that was a possibility. I could get my A levels in Germany and then go to the UK and study. ⁓ But I had this Navy thing in between. And then a friend of mine, she went to like a fair and I joined her because she was thinking of doing some sort of exchange after school. And they said, well, there's a chance you could instead of

instead of just going and doing your service in Germany, we have a few spots where you can do your service to society abroad. And I thought that's quite interesting. And I just applied to a couple of organizations, one of them took me. And ⁓ then I could just apply to a bunch of ⁓ centers and facilities in the UK. It could have gone abroad as well. But I thought, well, if I want to study in the UK, well, might as well just see if that works, right? So you could spend a year in the UK.

figure out if you wanna stay here plus also experience the culture and potentially visit universities so you know which one to go for. ⁓ Yeah, and so that happened. First person that got back to me was this guy in Edinburgh. A couple of days in, said, yes, yeah, we'll have you. I thought, cool, well, I'm not gonna wait for anybody else or for you to say no, so I just said yes. ⁓ Went with it, came to Edinburgh, landed. The person that then picked me up.

who was the person that emailed me is my father-in-law now. ⁓ And the, I don't want to lie, but I think the third or the fourth person that I met when I got to the UK within the first hour is my wife. So that was like, call it what you make. Anyway, so we met, ⁓ so I lived and worked in the home that her parents were running, which was in and of itself a very interesting challenge. ⁓

So I that year. Within that year, I looked at university. So that's a separate path. So I did university for quite a bit. But my main thing was I was very attached to the place where I volunteered. I liked it. ⁓ And then I just I never left. So although it might have been part time to a degree, but within our second year, we were made managers or asked to run one of the homes. So we ran the home. ⁓ And then a few years later, they were opening a bigger home and we were asking you.

Can you move to the bigger one? So we just, we always stuck around. And then after university, I had to make a choice whether I, whether we move away from here or do something else. And yeah, the job of operations manager was created. And I went for that, had that role. And then the CEO retired a few years in, and I replied for that role, feeling very scared and inadequate, but realizing that I'd spent 14 years.

being part of this organization and seeing my future here. I thought, well, might as well give it a go.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 05:30

And one of the things that makes your job different, right? So you, you live at work, you work at home effectively. ⁓ Like not, not cause like you work remote, like literally your house is like a co-living situation. Can you explain like what you actually do? Like what the, company is

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 05:38

Yes. All of it. Yeah.

That's correct.

All the things I do. ⁓ So yes, the the organization is one that was that was founded by ⁓ Jewish refugees coming out of Austria ⁓ in Second World War, just to start. And yeah, so they came to Aberdeen, ⁓ one of the places, and they started, they basically started looking for another purpose they wanted to give back, ⁓ you know, and

What transpired is they ended up working and living together with people with learning disabilities. But their philosophy was of one that it wasn't this clear distinct line between carer and caregiver, but it would be people living alongside each other. And has a very deep spiritual ⁓ grounding in that people felt, look, even though there might be, for lack of better word, that some people might have.

they are still a complete human being and they can also teach you, you know, even somebody with, you know, ⁓ kind of severe autistic traits has a certain way of being that can still teach you something maybe about you and maybe about your routines and, you know, how to maybe support people better. So that was kind of the deep underlying philosophy. ⁓ And then that spread, there was a very successful model spread across the whole world. So they sent us in Africa, ⁓ Asia, America, all over Europe.

is year, which was founded in: 1987

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 07:45

So I asked that because...

setting healthy boundaries is hard for most people in general. It's hard for people who have either like a nine to five situation, whether it is like a traditional job or entrepreneurs who like physically go to their office or, know, their company or whatever, and then come home. It is more difficult for people who work remotely who work from home. But then there's that third level, which is you.

where like you're like, you could be in the middle of dinner potentially, and some shit happened that you have to respond to, or you could be like in the kitchen with, ⁓ with a, with another resident, right? Cause it's a co-living situation. There are like, ⁓ communal areas as well. So like you're effectively on call 24 seven.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 08:28

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 08:50

How do you set healthy boundaries when that is your 24 seven situation?

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 08:57

Yeah, that's an interesting question because it can and I have seen people being broken by that for sure. Right. And I think that the way one has to approach something like this is not to think of a clear distinction between working and living life. Like that makes that would make it very, very difficult if you felt me talking to somebody who is in receipt of care or me sitting and having a meal with somebody is me working and then

I'm done with working and then I'll go and do something and still somebody asked me something like that will break you and this isn't the this isn't your life like don't do it please don't do it however if you feel that you can live your life alongside people respect their boundaries whilst you're upholding your own boundaries then you can do this you know and people have done this successfully however there is definitely a huge need to have ⁓ personal boundaries and spaces

One of my absolute sacred things is when possible I have an hour in the morning that is just for me ⁓ and I have a home gym that is also just for me. That's just one thing. This one area here that is mine and I hold it sacred because that is literally just a temple for me. So I can go and I can do my stuff. ⁓ But the other thing is ⁓ yeah holidays, vacations are important. Being able to get away. ⁓

Yeah, walk the hills with the kids and switch off. but equally, having said that, there is there's no there's no boundary. I mean, it's the same with my wife, right? So she we just had a child. And technically speaking, number seven, number seven. Yes.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 10:33

Number number that's an important point. Go ahead.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 10:41

But within three days of having giving birth, somebody asked her a if you want to call it a work related question, right? So people are just because we're living here. stuff comes up.

And if you were saying like, I'm on leave and I can't be asked and that wouldn't again wouldn't work. we've grown our family in this environment and it works well. And it's hard to say this about your own kids because you ever see them every day, but our kids are incredibly social. ⁓ And they definitely do not see any form of disability. They see ability on different levels. And for those, if you know a bit about learning disabilities, mean,

one of the some are think more clearly visible than others, right? So Down syndrome is one that probably most people are quite familiar with and they would know, you know, that there's a certain look sometimes attached to that. And I don't know what the conversation was, but we had this conversation, we mentioned, this person and, know, and one of the older kids said, by the way, is that like, you know, do they have Down syndrome? And the others were like, what? I've never seen this.

And only once they were told that did they actually say like, yeah, you're right. But they for years and years had lived with this person and never seen it because they just knew him as him, you know.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 12:01

The other thing I want to highlight is like, not only do you live and work out of the same place on the same, like, almost compound, the right word, like this campus, like this is huge. Okay. You, you live on this big ass compound, 200 people. You're never really off work. Yes. You have the home gym or the little home, you know, shed for workouts. I've seen them. I've seen the real shit, right? Yeah.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 12:13

Compound sounds super sexy, let's stick with compound.

It's a shed. Yes.

you

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 12:30

And then you have your little morning like writing routine. But even when you go on quote unquote vacation, your vacation is nine fucking people.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 12:42

That is true.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 12:45

Like that's the thing I want. This is, this is why you're such an inspiration. Cause like, okay, so quick sort of just, you know, what was it like the game tape or whatever the fuck, right? So your CEO, you've written books, you have grown your social media, followings across channels into six figures, right? Um, you have your own coaching practice. You have seven kids.

⁓ a happy marriage. Let's just, let's highlight that. Right. You are a phenomenal father and husband and just, and, and, and leader. ⁓ you're also fit as balls. Like most, okay. Here's most people think the, you, you can like, it's a buffet and you have a small plate. You can only put so many things on it. So it's like, you can choose your career.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 13:18

you

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 13:43

and your family, but not your health or you can choose your health and career, but not your family. Right. And it's this false dichotomy that people think of, like, I can't have all of these things. I have to sacrifice some things I want for other things I want. What is different about you that you've been able to do all of this? Also, you've got a PhD on, I remember if said that or not, you also got a PhD in the process of all this shit.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 14:11

was a little sprinkle on the top.

Yes. Well, I think it's, it's fair enough to say that my, my situation, as we've just highlighted, is fairly unique. So as such, I'm quite aware that it is, I do not have the work of a consultant who might be away from home Monday through to Friday, most weeks of the year. Right. Because that, changes everything. ⁓ Or to our commute into London, again, that changes everything. So.

I'm aware of that. So I don't want to be seen as like, well, you know, this is the way I live my life. And then if people feel like, oh, there's something that I see here that I don't have in mind, therefore, what am I doing wrong? That's not my message, right? So that my life is constructed around all of these opportunities, but also limitations and it works. But that's the thing. It is requiring hard work, right? It's been 19 years now we've built this.

We've built our family within the parameters that we are, and we've been blessed with everything that we have. ⁓ It is a very unique situation. But the other thing I would say to that is it's just it's a matter of choice. Right. And it's a matter of priorities. That's the thing. I mean, it depends on, you know, how much do you value your screen time? How much do you value drinking it in the evenings? How much do you value being on top of the latest Netflix shows?

I don't, you know, that's, that's, that is a thing though, you know, because people will tell you, I don't have time. don't, I don't, can't do this and that and the other. ⁓ and I see it with friends too. And then we hang out and then, you know, they're like, well, and it needs some time downtime, me time. have a, I had a friend visit the other day who I really, really like. ⁓ so him and his partner came and they were like, we, was just two of them, right? No, nobody's pregnant. Nothing's happening. They're just, they're just two of them. ⁓ and then they were like, yeah, we're just going for a nap.

I just had 10 hours of sleep uninterrupted and then it's like, well, this what we do. I'm like, do know that said, I mean, I'm not saying sleep should be demonized, but it's like, but that's your priority. That's cool. You know, like, it's just, I know for me to get done what I need to get done and for me to aspire to the level that I've set for myself, it just requires certain discipline and output.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 16:35

The thing, so you know, you're, you're an online personality, quote unquote. And historically you were closer into like the productivity leadership, like that sort of ⁓ intersection, right?

The thing though, and obviously, you know, social media is a game with hooks and formats and all sorts of shit that I thoroughly suck at. But one of the things that really differentiates you and did differentiate you ⁓ when you were heavier into that side was you actually live the shit you're talking about, right? I think most people

especially on Twitter, especially like older Twitter, like pre-Elon Twitter, Twitter, not X, Twitter. ⁓

Most productivity advice and leadership advice and things are coming from like 20 year olds to single 20 year old dudes. And it's like, it's easy to be productive when you're single and 20 and don't have fuck all responsibilities, right? All bro. Just wake up at four 30 all bro. Just, just, just do the thing. Just do it. And it's like, by the time this episode comes out, the other one,

already be out. ⁓ I had Jay Yang on, ⁓ a little bit ago cause Jay just put out his book. You just do things. And one of the questions I asked Jay was like, okay, so you have this book, obviously you're like the poster child for this permissionless approach and things. and you've done really, really well, right? Jay was making, I think Noah Kagan said, no, paid him like was paying him 150 K before Jay graduated fucking high school to work for him. Right. Noah Kagan, big entrepreneur.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 18:00

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 18:24

⁓ at Sumo 80 million plus a year, Jay had graduate high school yet was already making solid six figures. Okay. yeah.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 18:32

say.

the

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 18:37

But as Jan, I were talking as a go. Okay. All this is great. Obviously you're the poster child. You're legit. I love you and what you're doing, but what about the middle aged person, guy or girl with a family, with a mortgage mid career or the looking for a pivot or something else? What is your advice to them? How should they read this? Right. ⁓ and, and to Jay's credit, like he took a minute to like, to like pause and like really think about it because I think

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 19:05

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 19:07

a lot of, and this one of reasons I had Jay owners because a lot of people his age oversimplify it, right? Because they're like, my life is like this. It must be this easy for everybody else. Therefore anybody who doesn't get results I have just don't want it enough, or they're not disciplined enough, or there there's some fucking character flaw and shit. Right. And I think that that narrative causes a lot of guilt and shame and feelings of inadequacy for people.

who want a better life, but are following the wrong people who don't have lived experience. And that's why I really like a lot of things you say, because all of your shit is fucking earned, right? Like when you tell people like, look, for example, like, time blocking is important. It's not because you read it in a fucking productivity book or read some blog article about all time blocking super like, no, like literally this is how I fucking structure my day. Here's what my calendar looks like.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 19:45

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 20:07

Here's what time I wake up. I make, you know, my wife and I, whatever we make breakfast for the kids. We do this, we do this. Like my schedule is blocked in 15 minute fucking increments. I schedule lunch. I schedule my, my morning, you know, writing whatever I schedule. Like, okay, by this time the kids are in bed. Now my wife and I can hang out and, and don't be wrong. Like I've seen your schedule and it is overwhelming for me, but you and I live different lives, right? I don't, I don't think.

I could do what you do without the systems you've created. I think the reason you've created the systems you've created is because they have allowed you to get this far. And obviously this is like the hundredth iteration of your schedule and time block counts of the ship. like exactly. And that's what they meant is like, you're very no bullshit. Like you don't oversimplify things. You don't come at this from like a 20 year old with no real world experience who just

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 20:49

Mm-hmm.

It always has to change.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 21:05

You know, you read the top five productivity books. You're like, Oh, everybody, it's simple. Just do these things. Pomodoro. And I like, and again, not like not the Pomodoro is bad. It's just, it's oversimplified. I think for a lot of people, same thing with time blocking time blocking solid, but it is not the end all be all because most people fuck up time blocking because they don't block buffer time. Like you can't redline your whole day of like,

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 21:10

Mm-hmm.

I pomodoro.

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 21:34

one to one 15, this one 16 to one 23, this is like, if any little thing happens, somebody's late, you got to take a shit real quick. Cause you know, the, the lunch Indian food didn't work or whatever it was your days, but like one of my friends, that's how she runs her life. Like to the minute she knows exactly how long her commute to any individual store or work or anything. And like she blocks her day like this, but it's like,

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 21:49

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 22:02

Girl, if you hit a red light or construction, your day is fucked, because you have put no buffer time in between anything. And that's what happens, and then she spirals, it's a whole thing.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 22:10

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 22:18

When it comes to, I'll say it this way.

The thing that most people fuck up with productivity and productivity advice and productivity as an industry is they see productivity as the end in and of itself. My goal is to be productive. I am trying to be more productive, but the point of productivity is that it is a means to an end and that end is to live your fucking life. How have you

approach or what have you learned when it comes to productivity over the years to the point that you're at now?

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 22:59

Hmm, that's a good question, I would say that I would have certainly fallen guilty of that notion that you just said in terms of reading stuff and then just following it in my in my early 20s for sure. Right. So one one of the most impactful books would have probably be my mid 20s. By that point, it might have been soon I can't remember, would have been getting things done.

That was like a gateway drug to a degree to say like, okay, so this is actually how you structure stuff. And funnily enough, it's been what 15 years and I still follow some of those structures just because they work. I've changed them and I think, you know, the interesting thing is probably the most important thing actually in that whole ⁓ journey has been when I've dropped things off and some of those things could be dropped off and some actually made a huge negative

difference to my life because I didn't follow those rules, guidelines or systems anymore. Hence I have resurfaced whatever was the thing that like the linchpins, the things that really hold the system together. But then it changes, right? I mean, I've had quite distinct different phases in my life where certain things work quite well. So when we had ⁓ one, two kids, was a bachelor master phase, manager.

⁓ But it wasn't, it was nothing too complex. So stuff like, you know, being always on email and quickly responding and being in the company anyway, quite well known for somebody who just always has an inbox zero and just get stuff out of the door really, really quickly. I would just at the end of the day, always have inbox zero. That was my face at that point. And then it became a phase where, you know, moved into the kind of master's PhD, but also higher management phase where it required a bit more thought. So that stuff had to be batched a bit more. So

Yes, be productive, but rightly as you say, to live your life, but also understand the value of deep work. So that kind of came in, in that kind of middle section. Whereas now I'm very much deliberate on creating friction in that short response realm. if people want to, if people want to talk to me quite quickly, or want to email me or just think, you know, can you be available now? I'll put friction in place to make sure

that they can't obviously somebody needs to call me because it's an emergency. Yes, for sure. But I stopped reacting and I actually protect my time way more. And one of those is actually it's a mantra that a mentor of mine put towards me last year. And he said, because I kind of said, well, I pride myself on being a hard worker. And he said, that's that's great. And then it has gotten you to this place. However, you are now CEO. You know, it's a it's a medium sized company.

You're doing other things, but the main point we're talking here is you're a CEO of a medium-sized company. A lot of people and their livelihoods are dependent on you. And I need your team to be hardworking, but you need to be the hard thinker. So the most important thing I can do is actually block out time with nothing in the diary and think about stuff, right? Just really do that. So my example for this week was, this week was quite...

Heavily scheduled. I had two different board meetings one full day yesterday another charity sport meeting on Monday I had a meeting away. I had a meeting in town with the lawyers and had another Joint management group meeting so it was quite quite heavy in meetings and some other stuff one of the most important things I did this this week was on a Tuesday morning took our baby into the hills for an hour and a half and Had a walk didn't listen to anything and just thought about how do I need to show up for the different meetings?

and what are my thoughts and my intentions and how do I come across assertive enough that I get across what I need to get across. Like my previous self would have thought that's a waste of time, but that was the most impactful thing I did all week. And I need to be okay with knowing that now my productivity has shifted from quickly email batching to actually high leverage work. And that is me being productive. I'll have a day next week where can catch up with emails. I haven't done emails all week.

didn't have time.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 27:11

really like that because I'm a big fan of trying to cultivate stillness because your best breakthroughs don't typically happen when you are in a reactive mindset. Right. It's almost like the Kevin Kelly thing of like a maker versus manager schedule of like the manager like blocks off, you know, 30 minutes, hour meeting, whatever versus the maker is like, here's a four hour block of nothing.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 27:32

Mmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 27:41

that gives me time to just mentally unravel and wander and kind of let and see what percolates to the surface. And I really, really like that because, you know, you hear things, you know, whether it's like, you know, Benjamin Franklin, love to take walks all the time or Bill Gates would do his think weeks. He would just take a week in the fucking cabins and like Walden it up basically. And you see this time and time again with the majority that I know of.

of like the greatest thinkers and innovators and most creative people, they spend a, they, they are very intentional with creating a space to think without distractions, without things, you know, interrupting them, whether that is a daily walk, a daily journaling habit, or, you know, think weeks where you go out in a cabin in the woods or some shit. You obviously have a, luxury of, know,

being able to walk on like the Scottish highlands and shit. Like I don't know if, if where you're at is technically considered the highlands or not, but to my American ass, all of it is just fucking wonderful. Okay. Okay. Hilly. Okay. The, the Scottish hilly lands like, dude, I mean, it's so fucking picturesque, right? Like I love anytime like you post a picture or video of you just fucking walk around or whatever. That is so beautiful. ⁓ cause like I'm, you know, I grew up in rural Appalachia and I guess

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 28:45

No, but it's very hilly. Yeah.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 29:06

supposedly according to the internet, the, the Appalachian mountain range is, is the same mountain range that is part of like Scotland and things like back in like Pangea times or whatever, like they're very old mountains. I don't know if that's true or not. ⁓ I, that is, I get like, they look, they do look different, but like I'm used to mountains and Hills and like that just, you know, makes me feel at home. So I love seeing your shit too. ⁓ but

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 29:16

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 29:37

There's this thing a lot of people struggle with where I can't schedule, do nothing. I can't schedule, take a walk or read or whatever, because that isn't work. And if I'm not doing work, I'm wasting my time. I'm wasting my potential. I'm fucking off. So now I feel this pressure to block everything in my day and to be working, but people are conflating.

being busy with being effective, right? Because like you said, when you, so I used to work, as a building manager for a college recreation center, like a big gym, ⁓ for the university and our CEO had meetings backs, backs, back all days. It's multimillion dollar facility. He was, he was always super busy, but every day from noon to one, he worked out and people would always be like, Hey, you know, I forget what his name was. So they're like, Hey, know, Jim, whatever.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 30:09

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 30:37

Hey,

can you just not work out today so we can do an extra meeting or can you just push that? He was like, no, that is the one meeting I never cancel. That is a meeting with myself. When I, when I uphold that meeting, when I, when I respect that commitment I've made to myself, I am more effective the rest of the day. When I don't do that and I sacrifice that I am less effective the rest of the day. And I think just practices like that, especially for busy people, right? There's this

Sort of like this Zen proverb or whatever. like ⁓ meditate for an hour unless you're too busy, then meditate for two hours. And it's like a tug and cheek thing, but it's like people do not understand the power and impact of taking time to shift out of a reactive mindset into a proactive mindset of like, okay, nothing is tugging at my attention. What has been slowly come up?

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 31:15

Yeah, I've that.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 31:35

processing in the background of my mind that I haven't given it the time and the space to come up to the surface.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 31:43

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

I think that's, mean, there's certainly one thing I would say to that thinking of my own team here. There are some, there's some jobs and some, yeah, especially some jobs where you're, you are necessarily needing to be maybe a bit more reactive, right? So if you're sitting at the front desk of say, said gym, then we need you just to be there. It can't be going for a walk and thinking about bigger things. That's that phase in your working life. So

You have to recognize that as well. But then again, I was thinking, you know, we've got, we've got administrative staff who some of their work is very reactive, but sometimes they will have little projects or problems to solve. And actually you would do yourself a massive favor if you just mark that switch in saying, well, I've done this work now and I would probably vote for the project work to be done first. But you know, that depends on on your day, I guess, but go out for five minutes and just do that reset. Don't think.

because then you can come in and really focus on this project work. Cause I think one of the most toxic traits people have is to think the more I'm in front of the computer and the quicker I do stuff and the more, the more whatever the better this will be. And your output will actually be so, so much more inferior. So one of the things I've built in before every big meeting we have now, where possible, I'll either walk to the meeting or if not take a five to 10 minute walk.

just beforehand to just think through this is how this meeting, these are the important things I need to get out of this meeting. I never used to do that, but that was actually, that was a disservice I think to people because then you go from this very reactive mode of emails, answering this, blah, blah, quickly trying to hammer out a project or a document to then trying to lead a meeting and all you're doing is like, this is the agenda and yeah, no, that's no good.

That's not good. And I've definitely done that. And the team definitely has suffered from from me doing that. And I guess it's a culture that for me, that's a culture, cultural change. I'm trying to lead to actually say, No, no, no, you're way, we are way better off having instead of a 90 minute meeting where people have a laptop in front of them and a phone, and they're kind of half assing it and just looking up when it's their turn to talk. Let's have a 40 minute meeting, just pen and paper, right? Just do that.

And then can go off and do 40 minutes of your email, that's fine, but you're not wasting my time and you're way more effective in your listening rather than just pretending to be present. yeah, everybody I think, as you rightly said, definitely put some stillness into their day. It will be very effective.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 34:31

especially if you are a leader and by leader, I, you know, I don't just mean like a CEO of a company. It's also like, if you work for yourself, you, you are a leader, even if the only person you're leading is yourself and you're in your solo company, or obviously if you have a team, like as a leader, as, as a person who is trying to affect change at any scale, this is a really important lesson, right? Of like,

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 34:47

Yeah.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 35:02

What do you like? How can you cultivate an environment that facilitates the thing you're trying to achieve?

Never is it stay overwhelmed and go from thing to thing to thing without any, any breathing room. That's never the solution unless your goal is to burn your thing to the ground.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 35:26

That is

very true.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 35:32

So on the topic of leadership.

I know like you've studied a lot of leadership. You clearly are a leader. You have become a, you know, effectively a thought leader on leadership in several circles.

From your perspective, what do most people think leadership is versus what is it actually?

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 36:03

That's good. That has so many layers to it, that question. That's a very good question. So I think the quick answer is most people will think leadership means you telling people what to do. That will be the number one thing. ⁓ If you take it at level deeper, and I can maybe, I can relate it to my journey maybe, if that's okay. Because I think that's been the most... ⁓

the deepest question that I struggled with for the longest time. And it's probably an eternal struggle in this realm. So I'm not saying I've got the answer, but I'm just maybe sharing where I got to, which is starting somewhere as a volunteer, you clearly feel you don't know anything. You're working quite hard. ⁓ Loved it. But I don't know why things are happening. You know, the man says do this and then you just do it. That's kind of that's how you start, guess. And then you start

doing things and you understand it and then obviously you slowly start building up and you've got some knowledge and I think what happens a lot of times when you have bit of knowledge you then think you know best therefore you want to maybe tell people you know, you should be doing it this way or whatever. But actually I find that a lot of people don't think once you've gained some knowledge in the the organization that you know they still don't listen to you because you don't have a title. When actually good leaders listen to exactly that because the people on the front line know exactly what's going on.

So that's a really important thing, I think, for leaders to be aware of. So what I actually think what leadership or good leadership, the dichotomy and the difficulty I felt was I know how people feel on the ground. I have gone through those ranks. I've worked my way up and people do a good job and they all have a sense of what this place is and what they do. Therefore, having somebody on the top

telling them what to do is very counter to some some corporations and to some organizations including ours. It would be a very counter thing to think this guy at the top knows everything. He knows better than everybody else, which is I guess, guess think again, something that people get wrong. They think the leader is like the top person. So the leader knows more than the finance manager. They know more than the marketing manager. They know more than the people manager. They are just the best of everything. Totally wrong, right?

That person is somebody who should be deeply embedded in what the organization is doing to the ground level, but have enough oversight and understanding to guard and protect and guide the whole organization because they have all this rapport with people both on the ground, as well as having a good team that can enact the strategy that people have willingly signed up for. And if you have a board, obviously the board will also have a role to play. But so the leader or leadership as such.

is this dichotomy between knowing that there is a direction that the organization will have to be moved into to a degree, but to do it with the knowledge of what is actually living there today to make people understand that whatever you're going to trying to achieve is either completely the right move because of what's happening or because of external influences. And you just need to make sure that people get that. ⁓ But that's that thing. So once you kind of

I think when you're working your way up, all you're thinking about is always going up. Once you're at the top, it is very much about knowing what's going on on the ground and holding the whole. that's an interesting dichotomy, but because you're not moving up anymore, that's why you need to create space to understand what are the effects of my decisions now.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 39:49

What makes a terrible leader?

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 39:53

⁓ So the biggest thing is by far. If you think you know best and you're a gift to the organization because you exist, therefore we shall worship you. That's probably the worst.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 40:13

Let's say somebody has enough self self-awareness to realize they're being an asshole like that. What recommendations would you give them to course correct?

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 40:26

Well, if they have, I mean, I think probably the step before would be to speak to people that know you and the people that you directly affect. So the people that, you're line managing, I guess, for them to give you some rapport of how you're seen. ⁓ But if we're going all the way to this worst type of leader, it's most likely that you are in this position, people will not want to open up to you. So it might be time to go.

If you wouldn't want to, it would be just admitting that you think you've gone wrong somewhere. And that misunderstanding, you could admit that hopefully you were trying to do your best for the organization. You have gone wrong somewhere and it's become clear to you and you would like to work with the team on course correct. If it's not too far gone, they will do it. ⁓ If it's been a few years, pour in on.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 41:24

So I've had various experiences with, with leadership and being a leader or being a boss or being the president of an organization of things. And I definitely came into it, you know, like a lot of young guys come into it of like, I'm the boss now. Like I have all this power. You're going to listen to me. Like I'm going to crack the whip because that's how you get shit done. you know, I'm the captain now kind of shit. And I remember like,

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 41:51

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 41:53

For example, like in undergrad, um, I joined a fraternity and one year I was president and then we came up for reelections and I lost so fucking hard, but so many people came up to me like, man, we got more done this year than we've ever gotten done.

like, again, I'm like fucking: 1920

you're insane. Like this makes no fucking sense. We got so much done, but I'm an asshole. So you got but hurt and you don't want to elect me again. And like, it took me a minute to like develop the humility of like, okay, I was too focused on metrics and not the humans that I was responsible for leading that I wanted to achieve this at all costs. But like, if this had been an actual like company, my

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 42:27

You

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 42:51

my attrition rate or, know, my turn would like, would have been really high because people would have just left. Right. ⁓ and it took me a while and it also took me having multiple shitty bosses to realize, ⁓ I was like that. ⁓ I don't want to be like that. Cause I know what it feels like to be on the receiving end of somebody who's basically just a tyrant, right? ⁓ or like I remember when I was on internship,

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 43:14

Hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 43:18

And my internship was absolutely hellacious. ⁓ for a multitude of reasons, there were a couple of really good people, ⁓ but in general it was, it was absolutely hellacious. The closest I've come to clinical depression in my adult life was on my internship here. It was, it was horrific, but I remember I had this one supervisor and he could tell that I was like, you know, not really feeling it, not for my own ship, but because just the, systems in place.

we're really not serving the goal of what the internship was supposed to be. There's a lot of false advertising. ⁓ he was like, okay, let's, let's have a candid conversation. I legitimately want to know how you're feeling right now to see how I can help. was like, okay, cool. You've created this environment of psychological safety. I feel like I can open up to you and be honest. And I was not disrespectfully, just honest, like, man, here's how I'm And at the end he was like, okay, well, if you feel like that, we don't want you here.

He was like, we don't want people here who feel the way you do. So you can either not feel that way and stay, or we can ask you to leave. And like the thing with internships for psychologists is like you either finish your internship or you are like blackballed from, from getting another one. So it was like, my only option is to just suck it up. And I never trusted that motherfucker again, because it was like,

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 44:40

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 44:44

I felt like you were setting me up. You were trying to collect ammo. You were, you were tricking me into being honest and vulnerable. Right. And I think that it's really, really easy unless you are intentional about the authority that you are given as a leader in any capacity. It's really easy to either think you got to crack the whip or think you got to like get people.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 44:51

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 45:11

And sadly, I see that much more commonly in a lot of industries that, that I've personally experienced. or I see it on the complete opposite side where somebody allows all of their insecurities to come up and they like over communicate to the point that like, you don't have any authority because all you do is, is communicate how insecure you are about being a leader. And it's like, I need to be inspired by you.

I need to feel empowered by you and I need to feel that you have my best interest, especially as it relates to the company at heart.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 45:50

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 45:53

What is your advice to people who are either stepping into a leadership role or who have found themselves in a leadership role and feel unprepared to actually lead people.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 46:07

I think the first thing I would say is that that feeling is most likely totally normal. And it also is probably the best thing for you because it will ensure that you're humble. And that's going to be your biggest, most successful trait as a leader to understand. Yes, people are looking up to you, but that's the converse right of having too much ego. If you're staying humble and understand that your role is to

where possible, obviously have a team around you that can help you deliver on whatever you're doing. And they are the experts and you're leading the team rather than being the over expert. Then that's going to be good for you. But stepping into it, think, yeah, it would be probably just trying to acknowledge to people saying like, I feel blessed and grateful that I have this opportunity.

I might have worked hard for that. you've maybe you've stepped so I think one of the most difficult ones is stepping out of a current team and becoming its leader, right? So you're leading your peers now, right? So which happened to me that was that that was the most difficult thing is one day you are all managers same realm and you know, you're all maybe Bitching about your boss or whatever and then the next day you're the guy you like, okay now I now need to be this guy but yeah

Understand the traits that you you liked or looked up to in the previous leader and it's the same with parents, right and Ditch the stuff that you thought isn't great But then just talk to the team saying look guys, you know, I'm new in this I've worked out on this and I really want to be here But this can only work when we're working together So, you know me and I want to do my best and I need you to be open and tell me when when things are going on

And the best thing we can do is foster good communication and let's get going. then so just have a very open door ⁓ and be also quite intentional and maybe aware that you will have to shift in your leadership journey, even with the same team. So at the beginning, you will start this very open and saying, you know, I don't know what I'm doing. Let's do this together. And then you have to just kind of crank up that that authority level without becoming an authoritarian and saying,

I know best, for people to understand at one point, he knows what he's doing, or she knows what she's doing. And you can quite clearly say, you know, when you're in the one of the most effective ways is the way of how you're leading meetings. Right? So I did this in the very beginning, very open, let people speak. But then at one point, it's like, well, you know, these are the agenda items, and we've got 10 minutes, and now we need to keep going. It's just slowly show people that you've got your job, and you understand your job, and you just

You're just gently making sure people understand that you know what you're doing. But I would start soft and invite people in to help you co-create this new leadership role.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 49:11

I like that. It, it sounds cliche, I think at this point, but one of things that helped me with, with my own leadership stuff is focusing on trying to lead myself before I tried to lead other people. And again, I it sounds fucking woo woo or cliche and shit, but like when I realized it, but it is right. Like there's a fine line between cliche and timeless wisdom, right?

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 49:37

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 49:40

A cliche is timeless wisdom. You've forgotten is really all the fuck a cliche is. Okay. And then it comes back around. But like when I realized it's like, fuck, I need to like, have my own shit. I need to work on. There's a reason I feel like I have to prove myself. There's a reason I, I see enemies or people trying to attack me or I feel like I have to defend something and like almost overcompensate for something. There's a reason I'm so harsh on other people all because I'm harsh on myself. I have,

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 49:43

Yep, very good.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 50:10

high standards of myself, which is fine, but I don't give myself grace when I don't live up to those expectations. I think, and I've seen this with a lot of other people, you know, a lot of us try to basically like self-flagellate our way to success. It's like, if I can just like bully myself hard enough or hate myself enough, then you know, or, I, if I have a big enough chip on my shoulder, that's the, my super power that allows me to build so much shit. And it's like, you can build a lot as

using anger or hate or, you know, self judgment as your fuel. You can do a lot, but you will end up miserable as fuck because once you defeat all the enemies around you, the only person you have to fight is yourself. The only person to hate is yourself. And like, I saw myself going down, down that trajectory. It's like, okay, I need to work on myself first. How do I give myself grace? How do I reevaluate my own expectations? How can I

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 50:55

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 51:08

be more self aware of my own internal state, but also how can I be more aware of how my words are landing? Because it's like, this was my intention, but it wasn't what you received. So the message is what got fucked up. So how do I tailor my message so that you receive what I'm trying to send you? Right? So really working on communication, really working on self awareness, really working on

building rapport and a sense of psychological safety and in helping people feel at ease, but also recognizing and acknowledging a power dynamic when it exists. Cause like when you're a leader, like you fundamentally can't equally be friends and have that power, that power dynamic. You, you just can't right. Cause like I've had other bosses that were like, we were friends and then they were a boss.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 51:56

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 52:03

And then they're like, no, buddy, but we're just friends. We're just friends. And it's like, we're not though. Cause at the end of the day, you can fire me. And at the end of the day, you know, things about me as an employee from the CEO or from this other person. Right. And like, I've, I've had that happen of like, you're, you're pretending it doesn't exist when it's more respectful to acknowledge it exists. How do we work within that? So like,

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 52:07

Mm-mm. ⁓

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 52:33

For me, learning to lead myself allowed me to better lead others in any capacity because I no longer had those insecurities that were fueling all of those toxic interactions and false beliefs about what I thought a leader was supposed to be. What's that journey look like for you?

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 52:54

Yeah, that was very good. That was very good. Good wisdom in that. ⁓ Again, a lot of reiterating a lot of changes and I feel you know, people say that when they when they have kids, ⁓ you know, their world changes. ⁓ And my experience has not always been that case, you know, sometimes they just, you know, it continues on as lovely and as amazing as it is to add them in. ⁓ You know, you hear the stories of somebody

their first child for the first time and you know like suddenly they they were only seeing the color blue anymore i don't know something changed but i've i felt a quite distinct ⁓ shift so i think i've been on a on quite a journey in the last 12 months which is always quite funny especially i find when you when you are some sort of as a creator you're putting yourself out there and when you're going through something it's sometimes a hard thing to

Well, do you share this when you're still going through it or do you not? ⁓ And I really I think I shared like half a percentage of it because I just think you need to just work on your own stuff before you talk. I mean, why, you know, that's that's also no point in that. Anyway, so I feel I've gone through something, but I felt with with our latest ⁓ edition because I'd already affected so much change, especially on a professional basis and my engagement on a professional basis that when she came along, I realized one of the

the things that I had really neglected was that element of setting my own very clear ⁓ vision for who I want to be and reminding myself through various systems and procedures of that and really striving towards better every single day because only then when I'm striving towards this person and trying to reach those ideals, it's exactly that then I will become the better leader. And one of them is ⁓

You know, I've got somebody that in my mind I definitely look up to who is the, I don't know if you know anything about Formula One, but anyway, car racing, right? So there's a guy who runs the Mercedes team. He's an Austrian guy called Toto Wolf. Very, very successful financial guy. into, had kind of always affiliation with motorsports. Bought stakes in Mercedes and then has been the most successful CEO and team principal of all time, really. Phenomenal guy.

But one of the things he does is and he flies a lot, right? I mean, F1, you're flying like apart from flying from circuit to circuit, you're then flying back to the factory and stuff. they're like always, always in the air. ⁓ And what he does on a plane is nothing. He stares out of the window. That's his thing. So you might read a bit of the paper, he might eat a bit, but he said the thing he does, he doesn't have a phone on him. Or like he really just he looks out of the window and just really just thinks that's his thing.

And that's always stuck with me. It's like this guy who is leading so many teams, who is so successful, but that is what he's doing. And that kind of goes back to what we saying earlier in terms of work and making time and space. For me, that was one of the most important things to say is in order to lead this team well, lead yourself, remind yourself of the vision of who you want to become, make sure you're putting small building blocks into the day that help you achieve that goal so it doesn't just...

stay a vision but it becomes reality. And part of that is to make sure that you have protected time and space where you just think and you just be and you're really really cool with not being busy. So they kind of go hand in hand for me but yeah I've really heavily and deeply worked on who I want to become over the last six seven weeks. It's been quite a quite an intense period you know sometimes when you go through sprints this has felt like a sprint recently.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 56:48

Thinking about you today and how far you've come versus you in like a decade as a leader, as a man, as whatever identity you want to put to it.

Where, what is the gap? What does that look like? Like where do you have still to go that you want to be at in 10 years? Like what are the traits you're currently, you feel like you're lacking or you just need to improve the, the insights, the mindsets, the experiences, walk me through that gap and how you're going to get there.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 57:20

That's good, that's very good.

On a broad level, I think it's just being more strategic in all areas of my life, right? I think when you're in your 20s, life goes by quite slowly. We've got one of our oldest now, he's gonna be 15, right? I I left home at 19. That's like four years away and then I never moved back home. So that's quite quickly.

So one of one of the things in terms of in 10 years time, I think going even further than that, the most important thing for me is that if I lie on my deathbed or maybe before then my children, one of them ends up famous on a podcast,

you're going to you want to be bigger than Joe Rogan in 10 years and then they're only going to be on your podcast and you ask them about me, they will mirror

how I see myself with them and it doesn't deviate, which is a present and loving father and husband. If they can say that, then that's like that I'm good with that. And that goes back to your question because that means being present today. Doesn't mean making tons of money and then not being there with them and then like buying them something to buy back the love is being present with them today, prioritizing them today, which means doing the dishes at 10 p.m. or doing, maybe doing emails on Sunday at

7, 7am. That's okay. If that means I can be there for your school play, or I can definitely make sure that like before we jumped on, I read the little boys bedtime story like that happened, you know, that has to be that's the thing that makes them feel safe. And it makes me happy holding them and reading them a story. So that's a an aspect of that is presence today. The other thing about strategic thinking is to make sure that I always evolve in my CEO role. ⁓ And I've

If I look back to who I was five years ago, as a very, different person. And I would, I would try objectively judge that I'm way better now at that role. So I hope that can continue because that means that the people that I serve as a CEO, because that's one of the things I strongly feel it's not leading you actually the primary server of the organization that they have a, that they positively impact them. And, and the other thing I think of

in terms of building blocks, something that's missing. And I think actually this is a very interesting conversation with that because when you and I first spoke, I never really shared my working life as much, right? It was a thing on the side, kind of, as you said, know, we're talking productivity leadership, know, yeah, I've got some stuff going on. I also got a bit of a family, but I wasn't sharing it. And I think I had to go through this process, but I also think that from the vision that I have, which isn't

one of greatness, but I would really, I think what would make or really fulfill me is if the people that work with me are, I guess, proud to work with me like I'm proud to work with them and they don't see me as just somebody who's posting reels, right? It's actually somebody who is thoughtful and supportive of everything we're doing and I might do it very differently than most other people in my industry.

And I have, you know, I might be emulating maybe more some more American CEOs that we know. But it's a positive impact and that I can share my who I am more fully because I think that's been something that's maybe been missing. But I have obviously this dichotomy, right? I want to be respectful of the privacy and my professional obligations. And yet

I think the fuller story is going to be a more interesting one, one that might help more people.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:01:23

I love those answers. ⁓ and again, this is, this is why I fucking love you. Cause like you're one of the most authentic, genuine, kind, compassionate, legitimately inspirational people I know, which if I didn't know you, I would want to know you. So it's a supreme privilege that I can call you a friend. ⁓

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:01:43

Thank you, feel the same.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:01:47

The thing you talked about with, you know, effectively your ultimate definition of success is like, you know, your, your kids would mirror how you kind of, you know, see yourself and describe yourself. And basically you would be the inspiration for them to live a great life. And they would say, Hey, I had a great relationship with my dad, right? He inspired me to, be my best self.

I think that's really, really great for a lot of parents.

But I also see,

one of the things I see from people

most people either try to do the same as their parents or do the opposite as their parents. Right? So if you had a good home life, you're like, Oh, I want to copy paste that do the same. If you had a terrible home life, you're like, okay, well, as long as I just do the opposite of what they did, that's probably going to be good. Right. But there's sort of this, this in between of like,

Either way. So if you grew up with a childhood, however you define it, as you, when you're younger, you, yeah, there's a lot of blame, both you blame your parents, you blame yourself sometimes for like going through it or not changing things. But then when you get older, you, there's a moment where you realize, ⁓ my parents are just flawed people. They're not perfect, but they're also not 100 % terrible. But the, and that can kind of be freeing for you.

so that you can maybe start to like not necessarily make amends. Like some people you do, you should for your own benefit cut out, but you can start to move on. The opposite is also true for people who had a great childhood and then you idolize your parents. But then at a certain point you're like, Oh, my parents are flawed. Like they're just people. Right. Um, and then that can kind of provoke its own sort of existential thing of like, I thought my dad was perfect. I thought mom and dad were, you know, whatever. It's like, no, no, like,

We had some shit or like, no, I totally have like this character flaw. Like I just, didn't show it around you because it wasn't relevant. Right. And I think that that is almost like a rite of passage when you learn, like when you, when you witness all my parents aren't perfect, but they're not terrible either. They're flawed people with good qualities and less good qualities. And that I think gives you permission to be imperfect as well, because it's like so many people go through life.

either trying to live up to their parents example, or they're terrified. They're going to turn out like their parents. Right. ⁓ and obviously there's a lot of, you know, gradation in between that, but just as the thing that really helped me was the, the idea of like, most people are doing the best they can with what they have. And I think that no matter what you go through, no matter what you went through in childhood or whatever,

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:04:27

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:04:50

having that realization of like, you know, I used to blame my mom or my dad or this like they were doing the best they could with what they had. Now that doesn't mean they did. They did well. Like they could still be a piece of shit human being, but that piece of shit human being did the best they could with what they have or what they had at the time. You can do better because you have more than they had. You have more self-awareness. You have more of a support system. You have more fucking moral integrity.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:05:13

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:05:20

whatever right

But I think just this concept of we're all, and this is going back to like leading yourself, leading others, you know, your, your role within a family, a company, whatever, we're all doing the best we can with what we have.

How do you navigate that of you yourself doing the best you can with what you have, but also how like seeing that play out with your family currently with your upbringing when you were younger in your company, like how do you see that pattern itself or that that truth itself kind of play out?

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:06:02

Hmm. So I think in terms of childhood, ⁓ had a good childhood, I definitely had wouldn't say that there was anything that traumatized me, especially for my parents, they were providing giving loving. ⁓ Yeah, they made time for me. We did stuff. My dad was a was a teacher, he made special time for me ⁓ to teach me maths, which was his subject, but he also

He also went above and beyond so he would he would teach himself like French so that he could teach me the French that I needed for my next test. So right. that's that's commitment would still fall out at each other. I guess that's what you do with your parents. ⁓ But they're very committed. My mom spent a lot of time with me. We did a lot of stuff. So she's she's kind of in the arts world kind of restore restore of art.

We spent a lot of time in museums. would go with her sometimes to exhibitions or to meet clients and stuff, but also spend a lot of time in her workshop. So it's been a great childhood as such. The one thing that really, I think, limited us is that one is my dad is afraid of flying, so he's never flown. So that was like physically limiting, I guess, to a degree of where we could go. But he's also a very anxious person.

something's very afraid or it's kind of worst case scenario. ⁓ And that is something that I always saw maybe subconsciously first, but now definitely consciously something I definitely do not like. ⁓ And I wouldn't want to sign up to living that sort of lifestyle. If you tell me that something is that you know this, right? If you tell me this is a challenge, could be whatever, but you just put that word in it.

I'll do it because I'm like, okay, well, there's some danger and adventure and exploration involved in that. Therefore, we must do this. So that's a that's there is an element of obviously going against what I saw being lived. But that's much more, you know, it's probably also telling ⁓ I grew up in one flat. I was like that my whole life that one city one flat only child. And then at 19, I left and I'm now living in Scotland in a

cottage with masses of people. So again, very different. ⁓ Never thought I would necessarily live such a crazy lifestyle. But I definitely felt a need for bigger family because of their family, like both of parents families weren't in the same city. So very isolated friends were always primary. And it's now it's nice to have large family, right? I mean, one of my our nicest visions, I think my wife and I always had was having large family Christmas get togethers, right? So the kids come with their partners and their kids.

because we both didn't experience that. And that's something we always said that would be really cool in the future. So that's one. And then in terms of current family, how would you relate that to the current family, the question again?

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:09:08

we're all doing the best we can with what we have. Just like, how do you see that play out? Cause like it, for me, it's a way to give grace when otherwise it's really easy to be judgmental. I'm like, why can't, why didn't, why didn't you do a different, like, why can't you be better? Cause I also see like internally, a lot of people struggle with that of like, way too hard on ourselves because one of the things is like, all of us see the potential we have, but the closer we get to it,

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:09:11

Right.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:09:37

the more potential opens up. So like it's always like this moving target, right? Which is how it's supposed to be because the more you achieve, the more capable you become of achieving more. The issue is it's like, for example, I said earlier, like I was an asshole of a leader. It's like, why was I an asshole? Like I could have been so much better. It's like now I am, but at the time I was doing the best I could with the tools I had available.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:09:42

Yeah. Yeah.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:10:07

So using that as a reframe to like give yourself grace of like letting go of, of, things that you could easily be judgmental or self critical of. Right. But that pattern also plays out in our interactions and relationships with other people. Sometimes of like, they're doing the best they can with what they have. Then the question is like, if I care enough about this person to invest in them, is there anything that I can do to maybe give them an additional tool or support?

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:10:17

Hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:10:35

so that they can then do better because now they have more.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:10:38

Yeah,

yeah, that's an interesting one. ⁓ I, and that's, that's obviously incredibly subjective point of view. I'm not an expert in this in any shape or form. But what I would say, generally speaking, from my experience is the previous generations were very, hard on their kids. ⁓ And I think we swung as a society, probably in the too soft of an approach again, right? So it's everything is

cotton wool and we don't put any barriers on. So say social media, right? We know it's shit for us. We know this. But nevertheless, you give your nine year old an iPad with no limits. Like make this make sense, you know? I've got a phone here. That phone has an app called Opal, which I think, you you've probably come across, which is something that blocks, it's better than screen time blocker. It's just physically doesn't.

If you said it correctly, it physically won't let you open apps, right? My phone is just blocked out the whole time, right? I've got a block from 8 p.m. till 9 a.m. I've got a 15, no, 30-minute window in the morning, 8.45, 30-minute window in the morning that I often miss because I'm going to work. So, and then it's blocked till 12 p.m. Then it's open for two hours and then it's blocked again and it's open for two hours and it's blocked again. But if I...

ever spent more than 15 minutes on any of those apps combined together, it's again blocked for 15 minutes. And I do this because I know if I didn't have the block, I am not strong. I'm not strong enough for that stuff. So I know that if I've had a really long day, now with the newborn is different, but say the kids sound bad, say it's half past eight, I would just lie there for an hour. If I had no block, no limitations, I would just lie there for an hour and just do shit.

you know, then all my goals will go out of the window because I just waste time on some stupid app. So I know this. So why do people then not impose that on their children? Mine might be a bit extreme, but, ⁓ you know, my, our, our teenager has a phone. He's got 20 minute time limit on stuff for the day. That's it. 20 minutes. He can't access in the evening and not until after school again, because I know this. So there is that, I think that's definitely something. And for me, that comes into the parenting approach generally. So if I stick with him, he's deep, he's deep into basketball.

But there's obviously elements that, you know, I'm also, I've always liked basketball and it's easier to see stuff from the sidelines than somebody being there. So what we often do is if I go to his games, he sees I'm there, not in present. I cheer him on, tell him when he's done well or not, always there for him. ⁓ But we always have a bit of a debrief. Like what are things that I saw, you know, just maybe just work on a bit.

just small things and we might put on a podcast that is a bit motivational just to kind of get those juices going. ⁓ And that's for me that dichotomy where I try and make sure that you show presence but you do also show the kids that hard work and having a bit of a self-critical side is important.

Sorry, the other thing is we don't give our kids pocket money They have to earn it. Okay, I Was given pocket money not much, but I was given pocket money. Therefore assumed Money just comes to you. It's not a good thing So our kids need to do chores We pay them well if they do chores for others and if they have a good attitude I pay extra But that's one of those things where I just think

Not trying to be too self-critical and I also want to be careful that if they've been gone all day, they don't feel they just have to work now. But you have to, I think, that balance.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:14:29

Well, think with parenting, you know, the realization that like, you're not raising a five year old, you're raising a future adult. So like what environment do you need to create that would facilitate them becoming the best version of themselves as an adult?

I don't see enough people talking about that because they get too wrapped up in like the day to day of like all this five year old or all the fucking terrible twos and she's just like,

all, know, this is bratty teenagers. Like that bratty teenager one day is going to be in charge of whether or not to pull the fucking plug on you. Like shit like that. Like,

like, but like on a, on like a, a more serious than that, I guess, like you're raising future adults. What does that adult in the future need?

to have gone through in this moment. Right. And I think again, man, like you're an inspiration for it for a lot of reasons, but especially parenting, it's like, like that of like, okay, day to day, it is less of a battle early on to just give in and let your kids spend eight hours on a fucking tablet or rotting their brain on tech talk or, know, the,

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:15:24

Yeah. Yeah.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:15:47

just crippling your critical thinking skills, especially now. Cause like one thing I noticed on like Instagram and really all I like Instagram is just mindless scrolling with when I'm, you know, I just, need stimulation and it's like an in-between time. ⁓ you can no longer flag content as being false information with like AI. They removed that as a, as a report that there's like the vague category of like fraud.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:16:11

Okay.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:16:16

but they used to have like a misinformation thing. They remove that, at least in the U S so like, and, now more and more people aren't tagging things as being AI generated. So it's like, Oh, there's this new, you know, a solid show that there's this new spider that has like red silk that they create in a lab. And it's like either the whole story is false or the images they're using are a mock-up that they're not saying are a mock-up.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:16:21

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:16:45

Right.

But it's like, you're, you initially you're supposed to like, ⁓ like water market as like AI or like tagged as like, Hey, this is AI. This isn't real. Either they remove that requirement or they don't enforce that requirement. And you can't report things that are false. So I'm like, again, I don't get into conspiracy theories and like Psyop and shit and like, ⁓ fucking whatever, whatever the latest conspiracy theory is China or Russia, whatever the fuck shit there is. Right. I'm not on that train necessarily.

But it's like, the fact is social media doesn't have your best interest at heart. So if, as a generation, people are growing up and they, they haven't had these safeguards and AI is getting so good that it's hard to like, this is clearly AI, right? Cause like, what, like two years ago, you could easily tell if somebody was AI or like they couldn't do like the fingers were always fucked up or something. But now it's like, that's not a thing anymore. And it's like,

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:17:35

Yeah, you knew. Yeah.

Yeah.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:17:44

So it's just easier as a parent to give in and like, let your kid do that. But now your kids are, are, are learning false information. One co social media is fucking brain rot. But then you have all this AI shit to where it's now like your kids are going to grow up believing things that are facts are facts that are just completely made up in a way we've never seen as a society. Right? Cause like we learned stupid shit, you know, in, in grade school, right? Like I remember, know, fucking, you know,

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:18:04

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:18:13

whoever was like chopping down cherry tree or whatever the fuck and like honest Abe and like Christopher Columbus was doing this other than the fucking Indians and pilgrims were friends like stupid shit like that is what we learned in the US. Like, yeah, like, yeah, I can't speak to how, you know, I'm assuming other countries are better with education, us is fucking dog shit. But at least public school.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:18:23

They weren't.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:18:35

It's easier to give in and let your kids do these things. But the future adult your kid has the potential to become, they won't get there if you allow them to just without any guardrails do all of that versus saying like, look, 20 minutes, you can socialize, you can do whatever you want. You can continue to be a digital native as like being tech savvy, cool.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:18:46

Hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:19:02

but you're going to cultivate a craft. You're going to develop your craftsmanship in basketball or in nature or learning about, you know, ecology or journaling or whatever it is, right? Not only are you going to develop a craft cause social media isn't a fucking craft doing this. doesn't do fuck all, but you're also going to be actually living and experiencing life and living with presence and intention.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:19:20

Thank

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:19:33

And I think that that is something very few people themselves are intentional within their own lives. And we're seeing that more and more, ⁓ inherited by younger generations, right? Cause it's like, you know, the, stereotype of like the parents are like, you know, they're at dinner at the family, know, family dinner table. Like everybody's on the phone. like mom's on the phone. Dad's on the phone. All the kids on the phone. It's like, you're not present at all.

How do you all navigate that with seven kids, two adults, plus, plus work shit, plus all your creator shit.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:20:15

⁓ we have, I mean, never, never even would have started with having phones at the table. That's not a thing. Like phones are not at the table. They're just not like I don't have my phone at the table. ⁓ My wife would never do that. So that's not a thing. So I think that makes it but that in itself makes it probably quite easy because so our teenager has one and his sister is going to also get one soon. You know, 13 was kind of where we thought, okay, well,

You know, it also gives them chance to take pictures, podcasts, all of that. It's good stuff, too. However, since we don't have phones at the table, they won't. I would never allow that. That doesn't happen. But equally, we're not complete nomads living in some sort of wooden hut somewhere. So but we'll have family movie nights together and we'll watch stuff together. You know, that's that's fine. But that would cultivate that because it's a very short time span. As I said, you know, we know, you know, teenagers at one point, you know, you know.

girlfriend, boyfriend, whatever, spend time with them. So then they're out of the house, right? And then you have very, very, very limited amount of time with them. Therefore, where we can, we will force everybody to enjoy movies together. If that's the thing. Now, but make making memories like that is very important. But yeah, same with my creator stuff. I mean, the way the way it works for me, ⁓ quite clearly is, is system. I mean,

from a presence perspective, it would be horrible. And that's why I think I can't do what other people are doing, where they film everything that they're doing. And literally have a camera in the kids faces and like, you know, everybody would know the names of my kids and would be like, you know, like that would never be a thing. I'd never want to get to that level and wouldn't allow it. ⁓ So that's one. But the other thing is just from a brain perspective, I have I need to have it systematized. So I've got my I've got my stuff going out. ⁓

I've got some days planned out for the rest of the year already. It's just done. It's like, don't need to think about it anymore. Spend a good amount of time, focus, as we said, know, focus time, get shit done. And then I don't have to think about it. Message is still good and I'll supplement it with real stuff when it comes up. But yeah, rather than just, again, it's being more strategic rather than reactive about stuff. That's a major thing. But yeah.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:22:41

So then on the topic of, of your creator business, right? Walk me through the initial, you know, the, the inciting incident or whatever to get you online. And then how has your, you know, quote, quote, personal brand evolved over the last few years?

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:23:02

So how I started?

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:23:04

Like what made you want to become like a public person on the internet?

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:23:07

I

actually never did. I don't think I ever, I never set out with the sense of ⁓ some sort of fake ⁓ fame, whatever it would be. The reason I think, well, there's two reasons. So the first one was I realized that there is a realm online where I was following and I was amassing a group of mentors that never knew I existed and I consumed them solely through the internet.

So that was one thing where I thought, okay, that's interesting. And then the other thing was, and I came probably at the back end of COVID, but I also came at the back end of a couple of good friends moving away where I felt I was surrounded by people. But at times still I felt isolated, right? So yes, kids are there. And obviously my wife is my best friend. ⁓

And we've got great times together, but there's an element of friends missing, you know, that just you just hang out with them. They recharge you in a very different space and modus. So I realized that that, you know, I was wondering, is there this intersection? Could I meet people online that could be helpful with that? So what happened just slightly beforehand when I did my I went through a coaching program and that was also just done online and I met great people.

great people on this coaching program we did we did a year together we met every Saturday and then we had yeah so we had we had an hour and a half every Saturday for a year together so I met those guys and I was like when that was finished I said oh that's a shame but I realized okay there is obviously a way to meet other people that are like-minded online people that can push me online because I wasn't able to necessarily access them in a physical realm because frankly speaking a lot of them the ones that I looked up to and I met were in the US and I'm not in the US so

or a long time, I think since: 2013

you rather than just this this blog or this this newsletter that you were sharing, ⁓ you needed to get other people knowing that you exist so you can help them. Because that's the main thing I had. I was learning from other people. I was getting inspired by other people, including you, and other people that we both know that really inspired me. And I thought, well, not to say that I have something special or interesting to say. But if my story can help somebody somehow, that's a great thing. That would be cool. And

But that really kind of went, I think, hand in hand with being on social because just you're sending a newsletter to 13 recipients, which was the case for me for many weeks, which were 13 people I put on the list. So I needed to find some other people that might be interested. ⁓ So that slowly led into the social realm and just kept writing. ⁓ And then some things resonated. And then you're kind of getting on this train to a degree, I guess, where you're like, OK, well, if it's resonating, that's nice.

you're meeting more people, you're meeting new people. And then that can, I guess, kind of grow over time. But it was never set out with the intention of being known, I guess, to a degree.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:26:35

So then how has it evolved over the years?

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:26:39

Yeah, so I think it goes back to an answer I had earlier. So how you started, right? So how I started was a very, very niche. It was productivity and leadership sort of thing because I felt safe in that realm because it wasn't touching my family. It wasn't really touching my business. And it was just something for me, right? Productivity had been something that had served me well to get shit done for a while. It wasn't the end or be all, but it was like a thing I knew a bit about because I've been following, studying stuff, building my own systems.

So that was one. ⁓ But I think what happened is when I started writing stuff and then getting to know people and meeting people, especially when I then had this interaction also with Zoom calls and group meetings and all of that stuff, is I got to be known as the person, I think at the time it was six kids, right? When we met each other. ⁓ But it was like five and then six kids. So was like this guy with loads of kids. So it just kind of stuck with people.

And I never wanted to go into the into the parenting side as such, because I felt, well, I'm really, really not an expert. Like, yes, we have kids, but I've never studied parenting. I've never not a teacher. I'd not a child. I don't know. I know my children, I guess, to a degree, and I can help them. And I try and do my best, but I cannot really advise. And I think parenting can be can be so devices like diet or religion. Right. Very hot topic. So that was one. And then and then I think the other thing that kind of slowly started happening that

I was opening up about my nine to five and the stuff that I do on a daily basis. Again, I was very protective because I know that I'm serving people to a degree and I don't want to ever risk to, I guess, to a degree what I share online with that kind of influencing in any negative way the people that I work with. So that's always been a quite a tight, tight rope act. But yeah, I think what I felt is that

The more I could share, the more honest I could be, the more I could just open up. People got more out of it because they realized, okay, this is, as you said, not just a 20 year old guy talking about something. There's a whole thing going on here and maybe I can take snippets from it. And where it is now is that I speak to people that have been following for a long time and they're telling me stuff that they're getting out of it, which is always a mixture, right? Often enough, is...

It is guys who are aspiring leaders or in leadership positions. That's one thing they have, but they also want to get into fitness or they there's something about family relationships that's maybe not working quite right. And so there's always one element that isn't working 100 percent and I'm not perfect. But I'm just I'm just striving. And if I can help by sharing some of those things, then that's great. And that's kind of where it is at. I just share what I do. And often enough, I end up talking to people that are in a very similar situation to me.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:29:38

So then explain to me the idea behind hybrid dad. What is that?

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:29:45

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, that goes really into what kind of just just what I was just saying with when on a fitness level, I started I got really into CrossFit and then I got into endurance. And then when I then I started kind of working out just by myself and I did this thing where I did I prepared for Spartan races and marathons, but I never stopped lifting. So I did these two things. And at one point, it became a thing where people were saying, well, this is like the hybrid athlete, right? So you

trying to elevate both at the same time, which normally seem to contradict each other. And I think what happened with my online sharing is I went from this productive productivity thing to then just like time management, which became something along the work-life balance thing. just, and again, I was like, not sure I was struggling with it, although it kind of made sense in my mind, but equally I was realizing, as I was saying earlier, not everybody's in the same boat as me, right? People have different...

their lives are different. So the sense of work-life balance will be very different for different people. ⁓ But what I found is that everybody is nevertheless always has these different areas in their lives that they have, they feel maybe insufficient in one of them. So it could be the home life, could be personal growth or could be business. But also, so there's this one is the lack, but also the understanding that growing in one of them can actually fuel the other stuff.

Hence, if I'm more strategic presence at work, if I can set boundaries better at work now, that means that I have more family time, right? More discipline with my time at work means more time for my family or for my kids. If I can be more disciplined with how I, or structured with how I lead the organization and be mindful of what's the stuff that I need to delegate away, then my head space is much clearer to switch again and be there present for my wife.

For workout in the morning, I'm emotionally more stable. So all of these things feed each other. So it's like that hybrid athlete concept that each of those areas elevate the whole. So that's the idea.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:31:59

So then what types of people do you typically work with for your, do you call it like hybrid dad coaching? Like what, what is it that you call it?

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:32:08

Yeah,

yeah, yeah, just to kind of want one coaching basis really. It's, it's, or has always been people like me. Sometimes I had had some younger guys who are maybe beginning early 20s, but maybe similar ambitions to a degree. But mostly the stuff I can relate to is dads who have multiple kids and in some sort of leadership capacity and striving for most of the time more

more leadership or setting up their own business. ⁓ But it's that I think it's this pre midlife crisis time before it's too late. And it's often time when your children are between say three and 13. Because after three, they have their personality really established, right? So you've got this. And then oftentimes after 13, they're kind of somewhere else. So you've got these this this golden 10 year time period.

And there's this element of like, do want to strive at work, but I don't want to miss this. And how do I make that work? So that's something we talk about, build systems around, become clear. Sometimes it's just understanding, look, pushing here will lead to this. Is it worth it? Maybe it is, maybe it's not, but they just need that rapport. And often enough, it's very difficult, I think, your wife or partner, because they're so invested in you.

it's harder to get a bit of more objective feedback and really just talk stuff through.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:33:38

What is one of the most common, either struggles or goals people have when they work with you?

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:33:49

⁓

Often they come and they talk about time management and often they come and talk about fitness the biggest thing I found is It's a lack of self-respect that's like that's that that's the underlying thing that really seeps through all of it It's the reason they they don't keep to their time at work or they run late. It's the reason

that they give into the excuses to not work out. And it's the reason that they might not make time for social friends ⁓ sort of thing, because they just feel inadequate. feel there's something, they're not aspiring to this ideal yet. Therefore, they just need to do some more work before they can be free of it. ⁓ It's unsexy, but it's like, it's the thing that always is.

it's 90 percent the time the thing that's underlying it

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:34:56

really liked that cause like when it comes to like my own experience with coaching, one of the things I tell my clients is like, you don't have simple problems because if your problem was simple, you would have already figured it out. All you're really left with are complex, deeply existential problems and goals. Right? Cause like naturally with coaching versus like therapy, therapy is a very different thing. It's much more varied as far as like

the level of functioning you deal with with people coaching is largely skewed to the positive because people have to naturally be high functioning in order to really seek coaching or afforded or all sorts of shit. So it's like with coaching, basically everybody you work with is intelligent, is accomplished, is ambitious, does have a modicum of discipline, all this other shit. So it's like,

One question people have sometimes like, haven't I figured this out yet? I was like, cause it isn't simple. Like if it was simple, you would have. So the very fact that you haven't figured it out, hopefully gives you permission to realize it isn't simple. Right. And I, a layer beyond that is like, once you identify the problem, there is the obvious solution, which you've already tried. You've already heard dozens of times. All the gurus have told you.

But then there is the non obvious solution. And that's where coaching with a, with a competent person comes in, right? Me or you, depending on what their, goals are, right? Cause we don't really have overlap. ⁓ so I really liked that you led with the non obvious solutions. Like, look, like it's actually a self-respect thing. Like it's not because you're just not disciplined or just because you suck at time management. It's like, you, you know, all the time, I'm sure people come to you, they know all the time management shit. They they've,

They've tried the fitness tracker apps. They've, they've yo-yo dieted. They've done all the things. And it's like, you've memorized all the productivity and time management techniques. You've tried all the, the popular exercise shit yet here you are. There's a reason for that. And one of the reasons is there is a non obvious solution to the, this complex existential problem you have. And I think that's really where.

you come in versus just like, you know, especially nowadays, common things. Why can't I just hire? Why can't I just like do an AI coach? Chad, you can do it for me. Or why don't I just do this other fucking whatever it's like, go ahead. You can. And then in two months come back and my rates will be higher. Cause you waited.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:37:44

Yeah. You would have wasted

time and money on your AI code. Yeah.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:37:49

It's like,

that's not me being arrogant. It's like, it's like literally like, look, the biggest issue with a lot of those things is like, there's too much, too much of the onus is on you to have the level of self-awareness and the ability to prompt to get any insights. But the other thing with that is like, a lot of those things are just pattern recognition softwares basically that aren't great at sussing out.

non obvious solutions. They're not great at dealing with the deeply human existential pieces of what it means to be a finite being in an infinite universe. Like that's, that's what, that's what this is. It's like, how do you matter? How do you make sure you are making the most of this very limited amount of time you have with the people who you claim matter to you and do work that you deeply feel connected to? Like what is that?

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:38:29

and

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:38:45

straight up no fucking AI is currently is going to be able to tell you that because it isn't about the answer, it is about your exploration of the question. And that's really the thing that fucking people don't understand.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:39:01

Yeah, it's hard. I think if you if you've never if you've never experienced coaching or mentor mentorship to a degree, how would you know, right? And once you do know, it's like, you know, if I I've got I've got a couple of people that that are mentoring me and that's like the highest highest valuable thing. Like it's just as obscene the if you've got people that you really deeply trust and they can ask the right questions.

and they push you in the right direction because you have an implicit agreement of where you want to go. And they've walked that path before you. Man, I mean, that's just that's that's a cheat code. That's awesome. But yeah, if you don't have mentors in your life, you don't know anybody being able to like self guide yourself better by having a coach. Next best thing.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:39:56

Agreed. And like, you know, one of my things is like that. tell people my role as a coach fundamentally is to facilitate transformation period, like whatever that transformation is you want. That is the role of a coach, at least the role of me as a coach. Right. And like, so even, even like with you, man, you can tell people, Hey, the reason you still haven't gotten the results you claim to want is it's a lack of self-respect. You can spoon feed that answer and maybe even AI and insightful AI could say that. Okay, fine.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:40:25

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:40:27

The answer honestly, isn't the important piece. It's the, the followup question, which is, so why don't you have that level of self-respect? That's the three to six plus month fucking journey.

And that's why you need a coach. And that's why, and like, dude, that's why I love that. This is the current version of what you're doing because it's like, you have not just like social proof of like, know, incredible people giving you testimonials and shit. like, you know, you're very clearly competent today and that's obvious talking to you for even 15 seconds, but it's like you've spent decades living.

like both like just legitimately living and, and accumulating this, this expertise and these insights in addition to, you know, your own self study with leadership and, know, doing the PhD and like leading the company and shit like you uniquely understand what it means to be a hybrid dad of like, either you have a career, like a nine to five type career, or you have your own

business, but you also have a family and you're also trying to take care of yourself. I mean, you're trying to hit every level of like Maslow's fucking hierarchy and shit. You're trying to be the provider. You're trying to be the protector. You're trying to be the present father, husband, friend, son, also the shit. And it's like, how many people are actually in a position to help you when that is what you're trying to achieve.

When you're trying to, have that, that hybrid aspect of not sacrificing your health for your family, not sacrificing your relationship for your career. How do you actually do all these things? Dude, there are, I can count on one finger, the number of people I know who do it well. And that's you like not even one hand, one fucking finger. It's Toby. That's it. Everybody else, they might check off.

half or maybe most of those boxes, but you are the only motherfucker I know who can check them all off. And I know plenty of people who aspire to be hybrid dads, you know, using your term and every single one of them struggles because there's a sacrifice.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:42:46

That's very kind.

So do I.

I need to put that in this. So do I.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:43:00

And I'm not saying you don't struggle. I'm saying you, but you check off the boxes. ⁓ But that's the thing. Like you never claim to be a guru. You never claim to have all the answers. Like you have the humility, but also the confidence and competence to actually be the person to help people with this. And that's why, like, I love that this is where you're at with, you know, aside from all the CEO and all the other shit you do.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:43:05

Enough.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:43:29

The fact that you offer this to people and you explore these topics in your newsletter, in your content on social media. ⁓ and obviously like with your coaching program and things, I love that this is what you're doing because I can't think of anybody else who was a better fit for this specific intersection for a community of people who deeply need this. It is a very unmet need, which is why I fucking love that you're doing.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:43:57

That's incredibly kind. Thank you very much.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:44:03

I want to ask one more question and then we can get to, where people can find you and ship. What is.

What is one takeaway for hybrid dads or hybrid parents, right? We're saying dads, but obviously all this shit can apply to mothers and people too, whatever, right? It's whatever equal opportunity thing, but.

For hybrid dads who are specifically wanting to better lead themselves in order to lead everyone else in their lives. What is one key piece of wisdom of insight of anything that you would love people to leave this episode kind of thinking about.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:44:56

as in like a practical tip, the one thing to do.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:44:59

Doesn't have to be a practical tip. can be an insight you share. can be a fucking quote. It can be a story, anything for people wanting to lead themselves in order to lead others in their life.

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:45:06

Hmm

Yeah, I think that I'm thinking of it in a way if I could only rely on one thing, right? So if you took everything else away and you're like, okay, this is the only tool you're allowed to just use and then you just need to is find uninterrupted, protected time to listen to your thoughts.

and craft the vision of who you want to become. Like that is the most important thing. Because if you understand, you can rather than have negative self-talk, go on all day, every day, make space to sit with those thoughts, non-interrupted, write them down, analyze it, and then come up with a plan and a future vision that is crushing that limited self. And you can do that daily.

That's the best thing because you will get into a better position. You'll be happier, will be more fulfilled. You'll hopefully, as a hope, become more grateful because you realize that you already have a lot of good stuff in your life. And that's a flywheel. Once that starts going, you ⁓ will build a better life.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:46:35

Love it. Where can people find you?

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:46:39

Well, my website hybrid-dad.com. I'm on a few social media platforms. The one I would say, if you're interested in what I do ⁓ most closely will be Instagram. So that's ⁓ toby.amonds. Yeah, because I like Instagram because it has stories, right? So you're not just putting up posts, but you also can get some snippets of walks in the hilly hilllands of Scotland.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:47:09

And I'll put links to everything that shown us as well. ⁓ dude, this was so fucking good. I am walking away a better leader. ⁓ then I started this conversation with, which is great. I'm grateful for that. ⁓

Tobi Emonts-Holley (: 1:47:10

Awesome.

Well, you're

an exceptional host. I knew it would be good, but it's phenomenal questions. It's deep insights and you're not just rattling through a list of stuff. You you're teasing out things, but I think you're also giving your unique insights, which allows the other person to listen and come up with better answers and learn along the way. So I mean, I knew it would be like this. So I'm glad we did it.