#31 - Dr. Josh Williams: The Psychology of Modern Masculinity (Strength, Success, and Sacrifice)

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 00:00

So what is it about bodybuilding that you are so compelled to work within that arena?

Josh (: 00:09

shit man, in some ways it's luck. It's sort of, I think it's a self-selecting sport. ⁓ Sort what I mean by that is, you like you look at Olympic sprinters and Olympic endurance athletes, in some ways, once you reach that level, you were selected for, because not only were you interested in either Olympic sprinting or endurance events, it's that your genetics, you had the propensity to develop the type of

⁓ muscle fibers that would allow you to be good in that sport. Similarly with natural bodybuilding, whether it be, you know, something in my mind or something physically, I developed somewhat of a talent. Not saying that I have the best physique or even a good physique for bodybuilding, but the mixture of my ability to ⁓ diet and or train in a very monotonous way for very long periods of times has sort of allowed me to be, you know,

decent enough at natural bodybuilding. And so you wanted to know what sort of draws me into that sport? Well, I'd say aside from just the natural propensity for it, I mean, it's a, it is a lifetime sort of iterative sport. You can continue to refine your process and it allows you to get better in sort of multiple arenas, whether it be ⁓ mental, physical, nutritional.

And then it also opens you up to a community or multiple communities that you know that you can be around other people who enjoy what you enjoy and believe what you believe. And you know it's a hard thing. I think doing hard things is something that I enjoy doing. Something that I can you know anything that I can get better at I enjoy doing. And so bodybuilding is a way to do that. ⁓ But and it's and it's also it's with my body. And the sort of fruits of your labor are

are very evident, whether that be after a year or two of, you know, putting on some mass. Once you cut down, you actually see the fruits of your labor. And then in terms of ⁓ long-term benefits, just like, you know, age-related muscle loss is one of the biggest sort of ⁓ impacts on older individuals. And so I'm just like, God, man, why not fall in love with a sport that allows you to better your body and continue to hone your body in such a way that one, you visually

Dude, yeah, I'm not gonna lie, it's visually appealing, but also it's gonna set you up for the long term. And then me being on the natty side of things, that's just, you know, no performance enhancers or anything like that. I think it's a sort of a longevity cure, minus, you know, the Brian Johnson stuff. So not really diving too much into supplementation or anything like that.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 02:53

So I think the, the, the hangup, lot of people have around bodybuilding, unless you are in that community, right? Which is, it's a relatively small community relative to the fitness, whatever, ⁓ the, the, the fitness arena in general. So I think a lot of people look at not even professional bodybuilders, but just people who do bodybuilding.

as either they've got like either they're narcissists, right? they have some, some intensity level of body dysmorphia, right? Which I'm not saying that those things don't happen. Like you do have, you know, body dysmorphia. Yeah. You, do have people with body dysmorphia and you know, who are, who are narcissistic pricks and shit. But I think that the, the piece that a lot of people overlook when it comes to why getting

Josh (: 03:35

I'm not denying it.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 03:49

getting in shape is, is worthwhile in whatever version of that is sustainable for you is the longevity piece. I remember when I was, know, cause you know, you and I came from the same psychology program. Um, I remember when I was, um, a trainee and we went to, I don't know if it was like a, like a church or a nursing home or some shit full of old people and was full of them and

⁓ cause at this point grad school was a long fucking time ago for me. ⁓ everybody there was like 70 plus and we went there to ship, to like teach them fitness routines and things. And you might think, you know, so, so like for listeners and these are why the fuck would a psychologist teach you how to like exercise and then get in shape? And it's like one piece that at least the way we are taught in our program is, ⁓ to be like, is behavioral health, right?

and a piece of being a behavioral health provider, which is basically a, a version of a psychologist, right? we do, we don't just talk about depression and anxiety. We also talk about habit formation and how exercise can improve your, your mental capacity, but also just for longevity and quality of life. Right. generally speaking, a psychologist, is it going to,

give you a workout regimen unless they have an additional specialization. But one thing that we will do is help you figure out how to incorporate working out into your day to day. Right. so we're, really focusing on the habit aspect rather than the specific exercises of do bicep curls or do fucking squats or some shit. Right. ⁓ but when we went to this, again, old people facility, whatever the fuck it was, ⁓

we would show them things like how can you do like an assisted ⁓ squat? So like using a chair to like sit down and things like that. Right. And like there was, there was one time we've literally ⁓ had them use like, like canned peas to do bicep curls. One, because a lot of them, they, had no muscle mass cause they hadn't exercised in 40 fucking years if ever, but also because of like arthritis and shit.

trying to have them hold like a thinner diameter like dumbbell or something was very painful. So like something like a can was easy for them to grip and it was super light. And that was really eye opening for me because I was like, I never want to be like this. I never want to be so fucking weak that a can of peas is considered a bicep curl. And that's the workout, right? I think a lot of people,

Josh (: 06:20

Hmm. Hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 06:44

When you're young, you don't think about this shit, right? And I watched this thing the other day talking about like aging and how it might've been like Peter Atiyah. I think it might've been one of his things. basically how, I'm gonna completely butcher it, but basically your ability to react and almost like fast twitch shit of like if you start to fall or lose your balance, your ability to like quickly course correct, ⁓ that diminishes as you get older.

So one of the questions like, the fuck do old people fall so much? And it's like you as a younger person almost fall more often than you than you probably register, but your body can very quickly react. So, so you don't, but once that, that reaction time, that, that ability for your body to kick, to, to, kick into gear to compensate, once that starts to slow, it makes you more prone to falling on top of the fact that your balance in general is shit. Cause you haven't practiced your balance. You don't,

have the muscle tone, right? So can you talk to me about if, if, if I don't give a shit about having a six pack, why is working out worthwhile for me completely aside from aesthetics?

Josh (: 07:55

completely aside from aesthetics. mean, basically everything that you outlined, if you care about your long-term longevity and ability to move and function in your environment, then a bodybuilding style of training is going to be very beneficial for you. Like, look, fuck this six pack man. Like one of the reasons that one should bodybuild is it's one of the safest styles of training when you compare it to things like powerlifting, cross-fitting, anything like that.

In bodybuilding, the movements are slower and more controlled. You go through a wider range of repetition ranges, which means that a wider range of weights is available to you. So anything within the 5 to 30 rep range is available. And if you're an older individual, that makes a can of peas, something that you can get a bit of hypertrophy with, so it's safe. It has a wide range of repetitions and various loads that you can use. And just because it's labeled, you know,

a bodybuilding style of training, that just means it's focused on hypertrophy, focused on general strength and getting your muscles a little bit bigger so that you can function. Train in a bodybuilding style if you want to function in your environment better and you want an adaptable way to train because it's not like with just general weightlifting. We're not going to be doing, I mean, you can do cleans, you can do clean and presses and things like that.

but you're not limited to needing a barbell if you want to train in a bodybuilding style way. You can train like a bodybuilder with your bodyweight. You just have to find a way in your environment to give your muscles the appropriate stimulus. And if you've never trained before, it's not that much stimulus. So a bodybuilding style of training is going to be a safe and effective way for you to, you know, enhance your longevity in life and the way you move throughout your own environment.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 09:52

One thing that, so I used to work at a college recreation center. ⁓ I have, you know, lifted various, you know, intensity and consistency is kind of varied because the majority of my like quote unquote training time at this point goes to jujitsu, right? but like I have done a decent bit of lifting and been in the fitness industry in one way or another, ⁓ off and on. One of the things that I consistently see that fucks people up is they think

that soreness is a sign you had a good workout. Can you, can you talk to that point and, and the, and other misinformation or just fucked up beliefs that people have that can actually make it harder for them to be consistent.

Josh (: 10:24

Hmm.

Ooh, so soreness, I mean, this is a trap that I see early personal trainers fall into with their clients. They think that, ooh, if I make my clients sore, then they're progressing, which is bullshit. I think soreness can be a proxy for gains or a good workout, ⁓ it is not necessary, nor is it sufficient ⁓ to say that you had a good workout. And in some ways, it can be demotivating to individuals who decide, the New Year's Eve people who get into the gym for the first time.

And let's say they hire a personal trainer. And let's say this personal trainer is not experienced. And so they're like, all right, I'm going to not, maybe not consciously go, I'm going to crush this person, but I want to show them that, you know, they're going to have a really great workout. But inevitably they give them volumes that a intermediate to advanced person would have. And they never see that person again because they crush them with soreness. think we look at soreness, which is a piece. If you were never getting sore in your workouts, I think it is, it's a fair question to go, am I, am I training hard enough?

Then I would break down and take a look at the volumes, generally speaking, in a bodybuilding style of training. Anywhere, it can be less. It can be less than this. But for optimal hypertrophy, ⁓ optimal ⁓ nutrition scenarios, 10 to 20 sets per body part per week. If you have that body part on the front burner, you can have some body parts on the back burner. That's about the range that you want for a body part to grow. Can you get away with less? Absolutely. If you're a beginner, two, three sets.

two, three sets per body part and you can get away with that. Fuck man, for a while. I'm sorry, can I cuss on this podcast? I didn't know if I could. Sorry. Yo, my guy, my man, my man, my man. ⁓ Soreness, but I think we take that as an immediate indicator that something good happened, soreness, because we feel it. It's physiological. It's not something we have to track in a journal or anything like that. And it's acute.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 12:13

You've already heard me. You've already heard me. Yeah. This is my motherfucking podcast. Yes.

Josh (: 12:37

feedback, whether that be almost immediately or the next day. We're like, ⁓ I had a good workout. And so I think beginners and then even some intermediate trainees think that that means I had a good workout. And so they sort of fall into that trap when in reality they should be looking, ⁓ is, my strength progressing now, whether that be, you know, overall strength versus like repetition strength. ⁓ am I increasing in sets? ⁓ and then you can get into things like, ⁓ is my weight going up if I am trying to gain.

muscle mass or am I losing body fat? Am I losing weight? So it's really, it's one of those things that you can look at as a, it's signal but it's noisy. It's a really noisy signal that can be misconstrued and often is.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 13:24

What are other things that tend to hold people back from developing a consistent fitness routine that you see? Cause like I'll preface with, there's a lot of bullshit out there about like, this is the only way to work out. This is the best way to work out. This is how you should, this is the mindset you should go into the gym with. There's, you know, there's this all or nothing thing. Either you get a complete

two hour workout in, or it's a fucking waste. Like what are the things that actually hold people back from developing a good routine and a good relationship with fitness?

Josh (: 14:03

Good relationship with fitness good routine. Honestly, man It's a number of things like look I'm a little little bubble like all the people on my social media all the people I interact with They're natural bodybuilders bodybuilders man. They've got it down. It's their identity now The easy answer would be ⁓ you just have to develop an identity as a person who lives and that's true in some parts but I think something that I am looking at in bodybuilding is you know, what is the context in which we are bodybuilding? What are the? ⁓

What are the thoughts, feelings, and behaviors that sort of limit our ability to get into the gym? And then what are the other contextual factors? Like, you know, we're both psychologists, right? What are the biopsychosocial factors? And so for me, I think the social factors have become a lot more important in recent years in terms of how I managed to get into the gym. So I think a lot of people, number one, yes, they don't train consistently enough that it eventually becomes part of their identity. They don't find a community.

⁓ Within their so they don't turn whatever their fitness is into a community some people have CrossFit I would argue it's not just for the training. It's it's for the community similar to Orange Theory Fitness look, they're people training at the same time doing the same thing They found a community and then for individuals like myself, you know, the bodybuilding community and things like that So I think some of the most successful people number one. Yes do find a community of individuals who will reinforce coming to the gym coming at the same time

And doing that number two, I think a lot of individuals who don't make fitness sort of a sustainable habit for them Don't set, know, very it sounds cliche to us at this point, but very specific goals, right? Such smart goals yada yada yada things like that But they don't they don't have a show six months from now that they are training for whether that be bodybuilding Or otherwise, they don't have a 5k. They don't have a 10k so they don't set these goals and they don't see if

However, their training is something that they would like to continue for a long period of time. So goal setting, ⁓ finding a community and honestly just making it a non-negotiable in your life. And sort of the way that I live that in my life is bodybuilding or this way that I train. Whatever it is, substitute bodybuilding for whatever way you want to train. Bodybuilding for me is a non-negotiable at this point in my life. And I live that by getting up at

3.30 in the morning having my coffee so that I can train in my basement so that I can get it done before my boys wake up and I can get any sort of other creative things done so that I can have time for them. So I have built bodybuilding into my life. I set very specific goals for myself and I found a community. Now are those all the things that are going to keep somebody accountable? No, but I think they're big fucking pieces. Find a community, set specific goals.

And if it's a priority, make it a priority in your life to do every day. Make it non-negotiable. You don't body build. You are a body builder. And that's what I am.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 17:07

identity-based habits and goals and things.

Josh (: 17:10

Eventually, eventually for some, know, I mean, take the James Clear route, habits, then systems, then identity, whatever. Start with habits. Absolutely. Build systems into your life, set specific times throughout the week, and then find the community. And then eventually after, you know, years of training, the identity is going to come.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 17:29

Well, I really like that identity piece because so yeah, James Clear talks about habits, but Seth Godin is a marketer. And one thing is that Seth Godin talks about is people like us do things like this. And one of his kind of concepts around marketing is like creating that, that in group, right? Of like, this is for people who like X, Y, Z, right? Our product, our service, our community, whatever people like us do things like this. And you know,

Josh (: 17:40

Hmm. Hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 17:55

that that applies to something like bodybuilding or fitness or jujitsu, or if you're a writer, right? Writers, right? Period. Right? People like us do things like this, whatever this identity you want to develop, the more you begin to adopt that identity and see it as a, what is it like a noun, not a verb, right? Like I am a writer. Therefore I write not I want to write. I am a writer. Therefore I write. I am

you know, a, a whatever terminal put to a fitness enthusiast. I am a cross fitter. I am a bodybuilder. I am a whatever. Therefore people like me do things like this. Right? I think a lot of people just overcomplicate fitness because they won a lot of damage has been unintentionally done by like 20 year old dudes because it's like,

Never not ever should you listen to a 20 year old single guy with a six pack. Cause that motherfucker very, very, very few of them have earned it. One, some of them may, but it's like you're 20, you got low body fat, you got fuck all responsibilities or obligations. You got genetics, you got age, you got metabolism, you got hormones, like you got all the things you should motherfucking look like that. I will, I don't give a shit of what the fuck the 20 year olds are doing.

I'm asking what the fuck is the 80 year old doing? Cause that motherfucker has figured it out because the, and again, like not even like the 80 year old bodybuilder necessarily where they're fucking yoked, but just like this dude can still do pull-ups or like do one of my favorite things, which I try to limit like Instagram and shit. Cause it's just mostly brain rot shit. But like one of my favorite things to see is an old fucking lady just like deadlifting or squatting.

like multiple fucking plates, right? Like I love it so much because I'm like, this old bitch could lift me. And it's like, that's what you want. cause ever like, cause like growing up, the old people I saw were fucking frail. They couldn't do anything. They were all like, they were, they were skinny fat. They had been skinny fat their entire lives, right? Meaning for people who don't know the term, meaning they were relatively thin, but they didn't have any muscle tone. So

They were fat in that their body tissue had a low like muscle density, but they were thinner. So they're skinny fat. A lot of people live their whole lives skinny fat and then they, or fat fat, but then they get to the end of life and they're just, they're fucking old, they're frail. They have low bone density, low muscle mass, shitty balance. They can't do anything. And like, that's when you get to the point of like, you know, if you're old, like you can't even lift your grandkids.

You can't go up and downstairs. That's how you hear. Sometimes people get stuck on the toilet and I'm like, I never want to not be able to do a squat or some shit so I can get my ass off the toilet. Right? It's like that. will think about when you're younger, like, I can get up and down to just find it's like, okay, but think about how this trajectory is going to go. Right. Versus saying, how do I not? How do I want to look today? Or even in a year or two, how do I want

my day to day existence to be decades from now. Okay, cool. What do I need to do today to set that person up for success? And that's a piece a lot of people don't think about in a big, simple, but not easy approach is what is the identity I want to develop? Cause that makes that focuses you a lot. I, I, so there is a term for people who do Brazil and Jiu-Jitsu.

It's fucking stupid. So I don't use it. It's like Jujitero or some shit. It's not a prominent term. Like judo, you're called a judoka. That's a more, yeah, yeah, yeah. Judo, like that's fine, right? That's a much more prominent term. People have tried to make one for jujitsu and it's currently Jujitero or jujitsu. Some fucking it's stupid as fuck. I don't want to do it. Yeah, I'm a jujitero like no, absolutely fucking not. I do jujitsu. ⁓

Josh (: 21:53

shoot, that was dope.

That sounds like a Naruto like

the installation.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 22:17

But I identify as a member of that community. I identify as a martial artist. I can't not go to the gym to train, right? It creates cognitive dissonance when I hold an identity, but then I don't engage in the habits or the behaviors that align with that identity. And I think that's kind of a piece of what you're talking about too. ⁓ but, but one thing I want to highlight for you, cause like, you know, I'll, I'll talk about a couple of things like in, you know,

Josh (: 22:36

Hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 22:47

I want this one. I will have talked about some shit in the intro to like introduce you to things, but for context for people, your wife has a full time job. Okay. Cause cause I, I, I sometimes dudes get backlash with like, yeah, bro, like I woke up at like fucking four 30. Cause you know, Jocko, what time is it? Or Gog is what? And I love Jocko and Gog is right. I know we're talking shit about that, but like, but I am talking about shit to about the people who follow them blindly and like try to bro it out. Right. It's like,

Josh (: 22:55

Hmm. Bet she does.

option.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 23:15

I woke up at 4 30 or 3 30 and then, you know, I get my workout in and then, you know, uh, uh, pat my kids on the, on the head and then I sent them off to school and then I do all this and I do this like, but what is going on behind the scenes is your partner is a full time stay at home, parent, person, whatever. And there's nothing wrong with that, but that is commonly the, the rebuttal I hear from people is like, yeah, but the fact that you, there's a full time stay at home.

Josh (: 23:44

Hmm?

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 23:44

partner or parent at

the house that makes all this easier for you. And it's like, no, no, no. In your situation, you both have full time fucking jobs, two kids, right? You're also doing the creator thing because you've got the YouTube channel, you, you, right. You do all this other shit and you're doing the bodybuilding like in person stuff, right? And you're, and, and full time as like a professor is, is, is different than full time other jobs. like you're, you're, you're less than planning.

Josh (: 23:54

Cheers.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 24:14

you're teaching your grading ship, but then you're also supervising because you're a clinical psychologist, meaning your work day, work week is fucked compared to like a quote unquote normal job. Yet you still find a way to not find time to work out. You protect time to work out and take care of your, your, your health and things. Right? You talked about kind of touch on sacrifice.

How do you think about sacrifice when it comes to all of the things you have to do and all of the things you want to do?

Josh (: 24:58

Ooh, what a big fucking question, Jesus. Alright. Sacrifice. You're right. Both me and my wife do work full-time. Fortunately, part of the reason being a professor is if I want to, can have my summers, and we are now into the summer months, and I have my summers. And I'll have my summers with my boys, sort of this long-term view that's beside the point. you know, I think I've come to understand that interests

and things that you want to say yes to as you progress in life, they multiply and your time divides. So you're going to have to pick what you want to be shit at, ⁓ the more things you say yes to. ⁓ So the way that I choose what I'm going to be shit at, essentially, is I take, I zoom out and I think this is what people have an inability to do, like what's important, knowing your values. I zoom out by taking this sort of lineage level perspective on my life.

My life isn't just about me. It is a progression from my grandfather to my dad and their relationship and what my dad inherited from that relationship, whether it be genetically or relationship wise. And then my father to myself and the things I did and did not inherit. And then the things that I will be passing down to my boys and what they're going to inherit from me. And then eventually, hopefully my grandchildren. And I look at all those things and that helps me make the acute decisions because whatever I decide now is framed.

in a way that if this progresses me in a direction that I get more time with my boys and my future grandchildren and more freedom, then it is a yes now even at the cost of sleep. Because like, look, yeah, 330 sounds great. Jocko bros. I'm not a Jocko bro. Like, I like Jocko. I do. I really do. But I don't get up 330 because fuck, Jocko said, right? Whatever. I mean, I think that's good enough for most people. That's fine. Jocko said. I get up at 330 and it's a trade-off. Honestly, like, it's an unhealthy thing that I do.

⁓ get real. Like it's an unhealthy thing that I do because I probably get suboptimal amounts of sleep. Now I think there has been some research currently that shows that if you consistently go to bed at the same time and wake up at the same time, that's, that's becoming infinitely more important than just the total amount of hours. And so I do do that. So I do consistently get to bed around eight, eight 30 and then get up at three 30. So that's still around seven hours and it's the same time every night. So great. But I am trading off on total hours and I am trading off on

things that my wife says she understands, ⁓ but I'm trading off on time with her for all the yes things in the hope that my plan for the future allows for more freedom for both of us. So the way that I choose my sacrifices now, my acute sacrifices, is by zooming out, looking at my life through this lineage lens, what I want to pass on and what I demand of myself when I'm in my 50s, 60s and 70s.

and that's sort of how I choose my sacrifices. Did any of that make sense?

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 28:01

Yeah. It's for me, man. Life is about sacrifice.

You can't not make a sacrifice, right? So like, for example, you can either sacrifice a night sitting on the couch in order to go work out, or you are sacrificing your future health to sit on the couch and do nothing tonight. And there's nothing wrong with the rest, right? You obviously you need to rest, but you make the sacrifice either way. Either you sacrifice three extra hours of Netflix to read a book or to take a walk.

or the opposite, right? Many things we do are mutually exclusive, right? Saying yes to one thing naturally means saying no to a thousand others because you can only do effectively one thing at a given time. You can only commit to one thing at a time for that specific time block, right? Versus I'm a, I'm a big fan of like defaulting to know so that I can be open to saying yes to the few things that matter. Right.

because life is about sacrifice. So really getting clear on what sacrifice is worth it to me. So what you're saying is it is, it is worth the sacrifice of maybe getting a little less sleep, but making sure you're keeping the same sleep schedule. So hopefully your brain can reasonably adapt and kind of condense, you know, sleep cycle shit. in order to have more time with your kids to be the best,

father you can be to be the best version of yourself. You can be for them, right? Cause you know, kids pay more attention to what you do, not what you say. Too many parents think, well, I'll just correct my own issues by telling my kids to do differently. And it's like that it doesn't work the way you would want it to. Um, so you're making that sacrifice, right? And you know, you said you wake up at like three, three 30, but the big piece was like, yeah, but I also, go to sleep at eight or eight 30, like,

This is the thing that fucks a lot of people like, I want to stay up till midnight and also do the Jocko bro thing. And it's like, you don't know what time Jocko goes to sleep. Also, like there's also that, like the motherfuckers waking up at three or four in the morning, either they're fucking zombies and they get through the day with a series of just fucking IV dripped caffeine and nicotine. Cause nicotine is back in fucking vogue now.

Josh (: 30:34

Okay.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 30:34

because you know, it from cigarettes to vapes to now fucking dip and snuff and zine and wherever the fuck it is. Pouches, whatever the fuck that yeah, the trademark term for these fucking pouch. Oh, it's safer, bro. It's good, bro. Nicotine is actually fine. It's all the other shit. I'm like, give it three years and then everything's going to be cancer again. But just, oh my God, dude, I'm in Austin, Texas. I fucking understand the egg thing, eggs and beef and everybody's on fucking TRT and shit carnivore diet anyway. Um,

Josh (: 30:41

Ouches, whatever.

Just like eggs. Just on and on. ⁓

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 31:05

It's this idea of sacrifice of either you wake up at the three or three 30 and you're a zombie and you have to live off of stimulants or you sacrifice staying up and fucking off at night and go to bed at eight or nine o'clock. Like that's the piece, like people get so focused on what time should I wake up to be productive? They'd never ask what time should I go to sleep to be productive?

And that's, that's thing, man. It's like people focus on the wrong, the wrong piece. They focus on it's it's fancy. It's performative to take a picture of my watch or my clock and say, look at what time I woke up. And it's like, not one person is like, good night, everybody. Nobody's doing that. Right. And it's like, because that makes it not seem glamorous.

Josh (: 31:43

Hmm.

Look

Hmm... Ugh... Ugh...

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 31:59

It's glamorous to wake up early. It's performative because it's like,

look how disciplined I am. Look how awesome I am. All you fucking plebes are sleeping until seven or eight or nine or whatever. I was up at three o'clock. It's, it's performative showing us a picture of your fucking bedside clock at 8pm or 7 59. That's not performative.

Josh (: 32:16

Hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 32:25

But that's the real work.

That's the real discipline that kicks in. Cause it's like, it's easy to just keep staying up. And this is my thing, man, with, with, you know, we're kind of starting this episode talking all about like fitness and bodybuilding and habits and shit, because I just, think that a lot of people want to live a better life. And one component of that is their health is their habits, but there's so much misinformation and so many misconceptions about this is what it means.

Josh (: 32:55

⁓

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 32:58

to live well on a physical level that also influences your mental level and ship. But also here are the things that actually work to get you there. You're focusing on the wrong things because it, it's also to a degree like, like diet stuff, right? Generally speaking, a quote unquote whole foods diet is usually going to be the best thing, right? Minimal, you know, minimize process shit, basically nothing in a box outside of the store, right? Like fruits, veggies,

meat, shit like that. Things that are minimally packaged, single ingredient, not to demonize things with more ingredients, but that is just a very simple heuristic when you're trying to work on things, right? Um, even like carnivore or keto or some of these other things, uh, or, or old school veganism, cause the current vegans are just as fucking, they're just fat or skinny, they're fat, fat or skinny fat. They're not fucking healthy anymore because of all the process shit. But like the, the core component of a lot of, and, and,

Josh (: 33:50

That was fun. Yeah.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 33:57

you can speak to this better than I can. But the core component of most quote unquote diets that are effective generally come down to you are eating one in a way that is hopefully sustainable for you, whatever that looks like, but also generally fewer, quote unquote cleaner, whatever that word means, ingredients. And then a layer below that generally has to do with calories in calories out.

I know there are modulating factors to that, like with hormones and some other things. ⁓ so what is your take on what it actually takes to find a quote unquote diet that works for you prefaced with the actual definition of a diet is what you do eat, not what you donate. Like, like anytime we talk about, the cheetah's diet is fucking antelope. Nobody says the cheetah's diet is

Josh (: 34:29

Hmm.

Yeah.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 34:54

No grains. Like that's, that's the thing. It fucks people up. They're like, ⁓ I'm on a diet. I can't eat that. Nobody says I'm on a diet. Therefore I eat all of these things.

Josh (: 35:08

Diet sustainability has something that has been on my mind a lot. And honestly, I think it comes down to individual differences and how many fucking variables do you want to keep track of, I think the popularity of keto, carnivore, veganism, all that is you get to keep track of fewer variables. If you are a person who cannot or chooses not to keep track of a lot of variables defaulting to a diet that tells you not this, not this, not this, not this, this, this, this, this, and this.

And that's all you get is such an easy way to sustain either maintenance or a calorie deficit. And let's be real here. Most people, when they think or talk about body composition or changing of their diets, it's to lose weight. That's a majority of it. Not many people are out there going, I mean, there are quite a few people just like, I just want to put on a ton of muscle and that's great. But a lot of people are thinking weight loss now. You've got the weight loss drugs, things like that. You've got some things, you know, coming up that are going to help with muscle mass. But most people are thinking calorie deficit. So I think

diet sustainability starts with how many variables can you realistically keep track of and and does that fit into the broader context of your life so one of the trade-offs back let's bring this again it's all back to the trade-offs man like for me I have tracked calories for so long it's it's automatized I don't even I don't even I just see the matrix man I just it's all it's all beautiful flowing numbers to me

and I can eyeball portions. And so even when I don't have my phone or anything like that, I generally can ballpark within probably a hundred ish calories what's in front of me and roughly the macronutrient distribution because I've been doing this for almost 20 years. And that's the type of detail that I am into. For some, they don't want to do that. For some, it's portion control. Okay, all right, that's dope. You want to get a couple palm fulls, ⁓

palm full serving sizes of meat, you want to get a fist full serving size of veggies and maybe a cup full of grains and a thumb of fat and you want to go sort of the hand model route of eating and proportion that out to three or four meals, that might be the amount of variables someone wants to get into. Or back to what I was saying, keto vegan, whatever. So how many variables are you willing to track? That's number one. What does your personality sort of allow you to do? And then number two, how does it fit in your lifestyle? Like I was saying, so here's the trade off that, you know, this is a

unglamorous and probably something that I can improve on myself is my wife and I I'd say over the course of 365 days in a year eat separately

310 days.

That's my trade off. We have our anniversaries. We have when we go on vacations. We have some special occasions. But part of what I want in life is a certain body composition, certain adaptations, certain amount of proteins, carbs, and fats. And that level of specificity is a trade off on my relationship. And in any normal relationship, it would be a trade off too. So I trade off.

that time with my wife and her and I have had extensive conversations so part of me choosing or maintaining this diet has been ongoing conversations with my wife about what I will and will not do, being able to set those boundaries, being willing to enforce those boundaries and just being consistent with that. The difficult thing for her is that, yes I have my boundaries, but she now has to explain those boundaries to members of her family. And I have no problems doing that.

I can just be straight face, no thank you. but I just, no thank you. You know, and I try to come about it in a very kind and genuine way, but you know, I know what I'm willing, I know what I'm saying. The default's no, just like you said. My default answer is no. So as far as diet sustainability, are you willing to set your boundaries? How many variables are you willing to keep track of? yeah, yeah, and that's mostly it. And what are you willing to say no to?

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 39:18

You're like, so for me, so like medically, I can't eat gluten in any capacity, any form. ⁓ so that is naturally a thing. Like I, one, it's really hard for me to go out to eat because cross contamination, ⁓ is, a huge issue. ⁓ I don't eat generally what other people cook me because it's something as simple as all you put soy sauce in this thing. Most soy sauces have fermented wheat, which has gluten, but you would never think that.

Josh (: 39:31

Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 39:45

right? Or you put a seasoning mix in with the beef because you're like, no, it's, it's carnivore. it's, it's animal based. It's fine. It's like, actually you put some bullshit in there. we just, we put a little bit of breadcrumbs. That's going to fuck me up for five days. Right. ⁓ because animal based people will do like sourdoughs and shit. I'm like, I can't, I can't have that at all. one thing that worked for me and I was on it rigidly for like seven months. And then we kind of backed off.

was like animal based, like more carnivore. So meat, fruit, and like honey slash agave, right? Um, no grains, honestly, no vegetables. Uh, and the reason for that was I was like, look like, cause now I'm like 36. I'm like, I at this point in my life, I'm trying to eat in a way that makes my body feel good. I don't give a fuck what the food pyramid, which is a bunch of lobbying that went into that. It's a whole separate fucking conversation or whatever the fuck people say I should eat.

Maybe vegetables are healthy. My issue is when I eat broccoli, though I fucking love broccoli, I, you could strap a tuba to my ass and I could just sing. I could play you a symphony, right? I don't like having an upset tummy. So as much as I love broccoli, I don't eat it nearly as much as I would like because it makes my tummy hurt. but when I eat meat, especially like beef, ⁓ in various forms and all the fruits I want,

I felt really good overall. I didn't have any, like reactions. ⁓ cause again, like even rice or oats, you can have cross contamination issues with, with gluten and things for various reasons because of how they're processed and shit like that. Even like oats, if oats are grown in a field near a field of wheat, the wind can just blow fucking gluten particles on the gates. It's a whole fucking issue. That was a very sustainable way for me.

The issue was that I went seven months without any sort of quote unquote celebratory thing. And seven months in was our anniversary. So we're like, okay, well, we'll, we'll get a little bit. And my fat ass straight up, I will power isn't a thing. I'm like, if there's Oreos, cause they're, they have bling for Oreos now, if there are Oreos in the house, I'm just going to fuck and eat them. I fuck willpower. just won't keep Oreos in the house. That is so much easier for me. Right. And that was my thing of like,

That way of eating was really, really good for me personally. Um, and then we generally still stick to it, but we do have, we do add occasionally like some grains or like root vegetables and things now. Um, but that is, is a way of eating that works for me. The counter argument is, okay, Corey, but there's more saturated fats in beef. Now you're eating a higher fat product, higher fat content diet. What if that leads to you high cholesterol heart disease? I'm like, look, it could.

I'm in no way saying it couldn't or won't or whatever. What I am saying is I'm going to die one day, regardless the cleanest eating motherfucker in the world still died. My thing is, is how I'm eating helping me feel good and feel healthy on a day to day basis overall, because no matter how you eat, the way you eat will in some way contribute to your death.

unless you get hit by a fucking car or something else.

thoughts on that.

Josh (: 43:21

you

You know what you're optimizing for. You're optimizing for, it sounds like, bit of mental clarity, and you're optimizing for sort of gastric comfort. And I assume this style of eating also contributes to, does it contribute in some way to your performance as a, ⁓ God, I refuse to say that, BJJ.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 43:41

Yeah. Yeah. Big. I recover faster. ⁓ and I can, I can feel like, so the last week or two we've had rice, we've incorporated rice cause we want to do like sushi balls and shit. I'd now wake up hungry and a little lethargic and I attribute that specifically to the rice. When I am just eating like ground beef and eggs and, like some other shit, my energy levels aren't high. Like I'm not like manic, but they're even.

I don't wake up hungry. I don't wake up with like mental fog or lethargy. But as soon as I incorporate specifically a grain or any kind of like processed sugar, that is, that is my existence. And then inflammation kicks in everything else. The, the, the animal based way, I don't have any inflammation. I recover so much faster and it's, it's a constraint that I don't have to think about. It's like, is this meat fruit or honey? Yes or no. If yes,

It doesn't for me doesn't matter portions doesn't matter how much doesn't matter how much you snack how many fucking oranges or bananas or apples you have doesn't matter I could have as much as I want because it naturally is is a higher like satiety Diet for me because a lot of fruit has fiber and meat has a bunch protein and fat Because at one point we calculated it because we were like full we calculated and we both were having maybe 1,100 calories a day

Josh (: 44:52

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jesus. Fuck man.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 45:08

Dude, that

was my thing. I was like, there's no fucking way. was like, I am full throughout the day. I have energy. I feel good. I'm not hungry. And then we actually calculated it out because we were having like a pound of ground beef, eight eggs a day, ⁓ whatever the fuck amounts of fruit and shit. And it was just like, anytime you're hungry, eat.

but it just turned into like the actual calories were like 1,100 a day. But if I tried to replicate at 1,100 calorie diet with a quote, unquote normal way of eating, I would be starving and so tired.

Josh (: 45:50

Satiety is real thing, man. Shit, man. Yeah. No, I mean, you locked in on the variables. Like, you're like, is it meat, fruit, or honey, right? Is it meat, fruit, or honey? And those are the variables that work for you. You can eat as much as you want, the least amount of constraints ⁓ possible, and you're eating things that keep you full. And you know, it's a high protein diet, almost by default, because meat, fruit, anything like that. I mean, if it is sustainable for you,

Um, then fucking... God bless you, keep going. And if it allows you to fuel what you're doing in life, God bless you, go for it. Shit, and I think the other important thing you touched on there is environmental constraints. How fucking important is that? Why default to willpower when you can just control your environment? Why? Why would you do that? Why would I keep fucking Oreo ice cream sandwiches in my freezer when I could just not have them there?

And I think that's another piece that goes back to why people aren't able to sustain the type of dieting that they're doing. And it's not even their fault, man. It's their wife. It's their kids. They have foods that they need to have. I mean, you're not going to force your children exactly to eat like you. Yes, you're going to reinforce healthy eating standards, yada, yada, yada, whatever. But if you want to engage in a particular style of dieting, the other individuals in your home are probably going to eat a different way than you.

You want major changes. There's a good chance that not everybody in your house is going to want that change. So I think finding a way, especially if you're a person who lives alone and you just want to make some changes in your life, don't default to willpower. Default to controlling your environment. If you know you have issues with Oreos or bread or this or that, keep that shit out of your house. And that is a much easier way to sustain whatever type of dieting you're doing until you reach the point

until you reach that sort of identity level where now I can have all this kiddie shit in my house and it doesn't really matter. I now eat for the adaptations that I want and also because I am ingrained in a community and I have multiple tentacles that are sort of keeping me accountable. YouTube, the research that I'm going to be doing, the individuals, the things that I'm creating. Like I'm locked in. Like I can't not default to the way

that I need to eat for those things.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 48:19

When you got to take all those YouTube thumbnail pictures of all your fucking chiseled abs and pecs and everything.

Josh (: 48:27

When do I get to take those?

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 48:29

No, saying you have to keep taking those. like.

Josh (: 48:30

⁓ yeah, you gotta keep saying, hey man, you know, it is what it

is. It is what it is man. And then, you know, and that's something that I struggle with, struggle with too. It's just like, yeah, you gotta, you know, especially with like YouTube. you got ⁓ thumbnail, thumbnail title, hook, right? Any, I mean, what, what, what fucking gets clicks? So those pictures, I have a love hate relationship with those pictures. You should not be at the lowest of body fat percentages year round.

Some individuals genetically, sure. You can be predisposed to having single digit body fat percentages, but for most people, that image that is portrayed on YouTube and social media isn't fucking sustainable. Like even getting there can be detrimental to what it is that you're doing because most people don't have a recovery or reverse out strategy for like, all right, I'm fucking at single digit body fat percentages now. I feel like complete trash. Now I'm going to go house of Denny's or something like that. So.

love-hate relationship with those, you know, the things that, you know, get the clicks. But to answer your question, yes. Yes, you got to keep a certain level of body fat percentage for those. But fortunately, I can just reuse quite a few of those pictures. So it's not a year-round thing for me. I'm in a bit of a small cut right now until, you know, towards the end of July. And then I'm going to recover or reverse out for the next two years until I step on stage again when I will be in my 40s.

and be able to compete in the Masters Division. And so that's the plan. That's the two-year roadmap out of this July.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 50:06

You are the both buffest, but also like most fit psychologists I know by far. Right. ⁓ so like anytime, like I see like your, your thumbnails and shit, I'm, I never think like all this like narcissistic prick. I'm like, good for this motherfucker. Cause like it's, it's, it's proof. It's like, look, I am an authority on the topics I talk about virtually no one else can specifically

Josh (: 50:14

Appreciate it.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 50:33

touch the, the Venn diagram overlap of like fitness, specifically bodybuilding, but also psychology, right? Cause like you are a, what is it like a bodybuilding psychologist, a psychologist bodybuilder, like depending on which way you want to flip it. But like that is, that's a very, very small percentage. If, if you even have anybody else who had, who hits that, that Venn diagram. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, I mean,

Josh (: 50:50

Hmm?

Super niche.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 51:03

Yeah, you could have, I don't know if you can grow facial hair or not, but.

Josh (: 51:07

Oof. to say

that. This is about it. This is a few years in the making right here, baby. That's a...

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 51:11

I'm sorry. So

their Filipino genes are fucking you up.

Josh (: 51:16

They are, they are, they are. However,

I will say, my wife likes that I keep it pretty hairless year round. Like, ain't no shaven here, homie. Like, you see these arms? That ain't me shaven shit. I got nothing.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 51:27

Yeah.

But like, but that's the thing is like, unless you tried to like grow out some Freud looking shit to like signal your psychologist, right? Like your physique is your business card or, or your, your authority proof, right? ⁓ so that's why I, I, I get that it can be cringy, but it's also like, it's, it's really good social proof. ⁓ but actually, so

Josh (: 51:35

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 51:56

Okay. So we've talked about all the bodybuilding shit, but another thing, a couple of the things I really want to talk to you about, we'll see how many we get through for this first episode. you and I originally were going to start our own podcast years ago, right? and it still haunts me that we couldn't make it work out, but, but, one that kind of is what initiated

Josh (: 52:12

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ⁓ Mm-hmm.

Same friend.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 52:25

my desire to have a podcast period one day. ⁓ so like ours kind of, you we recorded a handful of episodes, kind of fell through one for one reason or another. I started a different podcast with two other coaches that had like however many couple dozen episodes. And then we decided to spend that down. And then now this is, you know, my solo one, what you and I were originally going to talk about was we were going to be exploring

basically modern men and masculinity issues and like the psychology of masculinity and shit. ⁓ because one, it's something that neither of us really explore publicly a whole, whole lot. ⁓ like I don't really talk about men and masculinity issues a whole, whole lot, like in, my own content, mostly because I am more focused on, a different audience of like creators, entrepreneur types.

And a subset of those is obviously men or people interested in men and masculinity issues, but

One, a lot of the current rhetoric around, uh, in, public, uh, popular discourse around men and men, men and masculinity issues is largely right leaning. Um, and that just isn't really, you know, uh, the orientation I have. Um, but from an academic or a quote unquote expert perspective,

psychology, like psychologists are really behind when it comes to modern men and masculinity issues. And that's, that's really kind of the, the friction there is, ⁓ you know, like Jordan Peterson, depending on what era of, of him you came in with, either he was saying very reasonable things, very insightful things, or just fucking trans bashing, body shaming.

Josh (: 53:58

you

You

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 54:27

whatever in the fuck far right fuckery was going on. but again, earlier Jordan Peterson solid. And then I slowly had to like squint more and more and more to see what his point was until eventually I was like, you're just out of your fucking mind. ⁓ maybe he's, he's come around now. I know he was going through some personal things and

Josh (: 54:31

you

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 54:49

There's a, there's a thing called audience capture where basically you become a caricature of yourself because you give your audience more of what you think they want. He definitely went down that route. I digress. I remember going to a conference on men and masculinity through like the APA, the American psychological association, the APA division, for like men and masculine ship and the two guys who were teaching us about

Josh (: 54:49

Hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 55:18

you know, masculinity shit. one hadn't, they didn't cite a paper that was newer than like 30 years. they called themselves soy boys. And I'm like, that isn't really the people don't use that term. Like you think they do. Like you're the, I'm hearing this from you for the first time, but also the fact that you're calling yourself a soy boy probably means you're not the best like authority when it comes to men and masculinity issues.

They were basically fucking hippies and, they had no idea who Joe Rogan was. They had no idea who Jordan Peterson was. They had no idea who like, ⁓ Brett and Kate, Brett and Kate McKay were from art of manliness. ⁓ Chris Williamson, they are Jaco. They didn't know of the forerunners when it comes to modern men and masculinity content, like current

dudes where they go to for guidance. They go there. Right. And I, I, I love most of those guys for sure. I've been on Chris's podcast, right? ⁓

but these guys had no idea what they were talking about. Like they were still citing like psycho dynamic theories from like 35, 40 years ago. Like what? Well, it was, was horrific. And I'm like, and I was subscribed to the APA journal for, for like men and masculinity ship for a minute. And I never learned anything, not because I'm like, I'm all knowing, but because it it would be like, ⁓ boys are struggling in school, but it would be like,

the whole journal would be like, you know, Asian American boys are struggling in school. And then there's this brand new article, Hispanic boys are struggling in school. And it was like, it's like, motherfucker, we've known this. We've, we, everybody knows this, like, but you're just, you're slicing it into just like little, little splitting hairs, but you're not actually saying like, here's what we can do about it. You're not actually talking about, okay, but in a modern context, what are people struggling with? So the experts straight up,

aren't fucking with it. So the only other place you can go is people without the expertise, but have the passion for men and masculinity stuff.

Josh (: 57:33

Hmm. Hmm?

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 57:39

That was basically gonna be the premise of our show.

Why do you think it is important?

for us to discuss modern men and masculinity issues.

Us meaning you and me.

Josh (: 57:58

why should we do it? shit, man.

Great question. Why should we, Corey and I, discuss modern men and masculinity issues? I think it goes back to something that you said earlier, that Venn diagram. Like we are psychologists and then also very ⁓ fit, active individuals. And then also on top of that, we are both males, men interested in these subjects. I do not think people who are not interested in men and masculinity should be forced to think and or engage.

in this type of material, but we inherently, something inside of us, are interested in these subjects. Now, whether that be our upbringing or just general predispositions, there's something inside of us that cares about young men and what it means to be a man nowadays. I know for myself, I want to say I had a lot of guidance growing up to what a man was. And, you know, with all respect to my father, rest his soul. Does he have a soul? Never mind.

You know, I only saw...

certain parts of masculinity and I wish I had seen him in a more complete picture.

Josh (: 59:12

You know, I saw anger growing up as a solution for a lot of things. And as I sort of progressed in life, I realized that anger wasn't really a solution to anything. It was more signal that should be paid attention to. But I didn't really have the appropriate tools. And I think a lot of men sort of go through this. I think

Nowadays it's easier than ever to lose yourself in social media, in video games, ⁓ in porn. And so men's default is to no longer get out of the house and to do and to seek and to find other men ⁓ to seek adventure, to seek ⁓ novelty. ⁓ It has turned into this thing where we are satiated by media and

There's less of that drive to figure out what it actually means to become a man, to do something to become a man. So I think for you and I, coming at it from the perspective of, yes, psychologists, but also individuals who live their values and have continued to live their values in some ways, I think it's important for us to talk about men and masculinity things because although we might not be, you know, right, far right, whatever, traditional, completely traditional, traditionally

Masculine men. I think we can bring a balanced perspective that yes, we have this sort of somewhat left-leaning perspective in terms of you know, you should be able to do whatever it is that you want to do but also we have some traditionally masculine things about us like, you know I'm a fucking Jim, bro when I want to be You you roll jujitsu

And you eat carnivore adjacent, if not carnivore. Like there are a lot of things that if people only looked at certain sections of our Venn diagram, they'd be like, right wing Nazi sympathizer, just fucking look at his beard, that one's hairless. Yeah, they would look at us and go, no, uh-uh. But no, no, no, I think there is also sort of parts of masculinity like I care about you a lot.

Yeah, right? Like, don't, I don't, this is one of the things, I don't socialize much. I choose who I socialize with and you are one of the people I fucks with, you know, all the time to the degree that I can. And I care about you and I fucking, I get excited to see what you're doing and this continued progression that you have and I want to support you in that and I think that's a part of masculinity that is sort of missing.

How do we care about each other as dudes and support each other in our own ventures, even if they are, whether they're adjacent or different things entirely. And we're missing that through this sort of sedation that our current environments are giving us. Really this sort of evolutionarily mismatched environment where we would naturally group together on a shared mission and vision. But now you can just stay at home and do a diddly-dick.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:02:23

Yeah. There's another term called normative male alexithymia, which is basically just under under case stoicism or gray rocking. guess some people call it, normative meaning like it's within a, a normal parameters. ⁓ but it's just basically like an emotional stuntedness and a, stunted emotional expression. And I definitely do that. Right? Like I,

Don't get like I get excited and, I, I will be boisterous, not as much as I was when I was 20, but I still do that. But a piece of it is I'm no longer in, I'm rarely rather in a context where that part of my identity or those reactions are warranted, let alone socially condoned. So it's almost like, and I know there's a term for it, but I fucking blanking on it.

basically like when you're around old friends, you regressed to that version of yourself when you're around those old friends. so like when I, when I go back to Huntington, when I go and hang out with people, I, it's not that I default or I regressed back to that person so much as like now this part of me is allowed to come out. Right. And you know, with a lot of guys, ⁓ we were not really allowed to be guys a whole lot. And again,

Josh (: 1:03:23

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:03:49

I I'm definitely not right leaning, right? Like if, if I had to figure out where the fuck I am on a spectrum, it's probably center left or left of center left, whatever the fuck that is. But like I have the gym, right? And yes, there are women. Yes, there are, you know, we, have people who are trans and like, and, and all of that, right. But that is where I go. And, and I am, I'm allowed to, be rougher, to be more boisterous, to, to

Be whatever, right? ⁓ we don't have, at least in the U S right. We don't have like third places, right? Or whatever they're called. in other parts of, of, of the world, like, know, in Europe and things like they have more third places, right? Austin, Texas has some third places, but most of the third places are like, this is a coworking space. Be quiet, right? Like you can't like have like any level of physicality or, or intimacy.

Josh (: 1:04:26

Hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:04:47

Right? Like dude, a fucking just a going, having like a campfire with like a bunch of friends again, right now we're talking about men. like a bunch of like dude, the depth of conversation you have at night over a fire, hard to fucking beat. I don't know what it is about nighttime and fires that makes you naturally pensive, but also open to being vulnerable. No idea what that I would love to read fucking research on that shit, but like,

There is something in that very specific context where you're like, you know what? I'm going to open up and I'm going to talk about really deep shit. Like you'll talk about deeper shit there than damn near any therapy room. Like, like we both know therapy. it's like this, there's an art to it for sure. But it's like, you just stick a motherfucker at night in front of a campfire. You don't have to build rapport. You don't have to like create a psychologically safe environment. It's just,

Josh (: 1:05:24

Mm-hmm.

real shit.

Thank you.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:05:46

put that bitch in front of a fire, they will let it all out. But like, we don't have that. We don't have camaraderie. We don't have rites of passage. That's another big thing, right? It's like, how do you know when you're a man? Is it when you can grow facial hair? Is it when you have a kid, right? Exactly. Is it when you have a kid? Is it when you get a job? Is it when you turn 18? Is it when you get a house? Like, is it when you kill your first fucking buffalo? Like what? What makes you a man?

And it's like, you know, like I talked about Brett McKay, like there is an art of mainliness, like the art of mainliness.com. There's not an art of womanliness or an art of femininity, like just straight up women don't have the same degree of, of, of an identity crisis as, as this generation of guys seems to have had. Right. And one thing I, I do believe it is part of it. And you and I've talked about it.

in other situations. I know Keelan, Dr. Hinton, we've all talked about it. ⁓ I'll have him on the show at some point, but ⁓ it is this whole idea of like, gender roles, of your, your opinions of traditional gender roles, they served a function. And for, for, for generations, it's like, this was the quote unquote woman's job. This was the guy's job. But at a certain point women got

Josh (: 1:06:57

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:07:12

trained differently. They were like, Hey, you need to be self sufficient. Go get an education, be able to get a job and provide for yourself. And that's, that's solid. There's nothing wrong with that. The issue that happened was women now were operating off of a different script, but guys were operating off of the same old script. So the guy was like, I've basically, I've spent my entire life training for this role. My job is to provide and protect.

But now I get into, you know, a hetero relationship thinking this is my role. And the girl's like, nah, bro, like I got a job. I'm educated. I got fucking mace. I do jujitsu too. What the fuck do I need you for? And the, and the guy's like, I don't fucking know.

Josh (: 1:07:49

What do I need you for?

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:07:57

Like I legitimately, I don't know what role I serve now because I thought this is what I was training for and I have all this training, but there's not a job opening and I don't know what the fuck to do with myself because I'm not, I didn't learn to be adaptable. I didn't learn different scripts. Maybe, maybe I didn't learn, you know, EQ skills. I don't know how to communicate effectively. I'm not good at emotionally, emotional labeling. I don't really know what the fuck I feel right now.

I don't know how to be vulnerable. I don't know how to be okay with the fact that maybe you make more money than me. Like I, I don't, I, I, you want me to do dishes like rise the fuck? I don't, how do I cook? Right. And again, not say this is all guys, right? But I do think that the guys who, who struggle with the current version of, of relationships right now, it's one of the reasons is that

They're just like, I don't know what my role is anymore. And there aren't. And this is why Rogan, you know, Joe Rogan, Chris ⁓ Brett, like all these people like that's why those people exist. Not why they exist. It's why they've gained so much prominence because they're like, hey, here's what I figured out or let me bring on other people to talk about this. Right. And yes, some of it is really good. Other times people have crackpots on or likes just against some fucking far right bullshit.

Josh (: 1:09:19

you

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:09:26

That happens. But fundamentally, it's because people are looking for guidance.

There aren't many people helping that demographic who aren't trying to Andrew Tate it up. Like I like my thing with like Jordan Peterson, there's some of the shit that I absolutely fucking loathe and I think it is vitriolic. Some of his stuff I'm like, you know what? That actually makes sense. That's a really good insight pairing religion and philosophy and applying that to modern psychological ship. That's solid.

Josh (: 1:09:40

Hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:10:00

Would I be down to have a conversation with with Jordan Peterson at some point? Sure. We have mutual friends who they like and respect him. I'm like, okay, even though I've seen some of the shit that I don't like, I'm willing to defer judgment if you, if you like him, cause I like and trust you. So I would be down to have that conversation. Andrew Tate is just a fucking cancer to society, but he's a symptom, right? Like,

Josh (: 1:10:26

Hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:10:28

I'd be willing to break bread with Jordan Peterson in certain circumstances. Andrew Tate is just like, nah, buddy, like you can just keep on fucking off, right?

Josh (: 1:10:36

That's it, ringside. I'm not gonna lie, I

mean...

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:10:40

Kickboxing, might win jujitsu. I'd probably win, but, but, but, but my thing is like what the reason he works is because you have a generation of young dudes who are like this role I've, I've trained for isn't available anymore. Therefore it must be women who are, who are the reason it's their fault. Well, this guy over here is telling me it's not my fault that the system is rigged against me.

Josh (: 1:10:41

Hehehehehe

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:11:09

That makes sense. That that's why I feel the way I do. So let me just kind of blindly follow this guy who effectively is telling me to treat women like fucking property and that, you know, justifying my in seldom and black pill, red pill, whatever the fuck the pill is.

We need the anti Andrew Tates, like people who are passionate about men and masculinity issues who do offer legitimate guidance, not rigid dogma, but helping dudes figure out what kind of man do you want to be? What, what is a man to you? Right? Like you were talking earlier about, you know, anger. I used to work for, ⁓ a juvenile detention facility. and I worked with the boys.

So these, these, these kids were like 13 to 17. Cause once they turned 18, they aged out. Um, none of them could define what a man was because I asked him, I was like, you know, you talk about, you want to be a man. What is a man? Um, cause a lot, honestly, like not all, but a lot of them, their goal in life was to run their pod in prison, not to go to college, not to get a job, not to have a family to run their pod. Cause that was all they knew. Right. And

we started talking about, you know, what, does it mean? And a lot of it ended up being like a man physicality. He's strong. He can break things. He can fight. And I'm like, okay, how do you define an infant? They're like, what do you mean? was like, well, an infant can't control their emotions. An infant throws a tantrum. They break things. They yell, they scream, they throw, they punch. I was like, men don't.

Josh (: 1:12:35

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:12:58

Men are in control of their emotions. Men protect people who need protecting. Men provide for the people they care about. And that was just a completely different schema than any of them really knew. And not because like, they came from broken homes. Like some of them came from okay homes. Some of them were raised without dads and shit. Others just had toxic male role models. But that was the only version of a man they ever knew.

They didn't know any other way.

You so that, there are two now three people that I look up to when it comes to people who are the best definition of a man, a father, a husband, a son, whatever. There are three people. You are one of them. ⁓ a guy named Toby, ⁓ Emmett's Holly. I had Toby on the show. His episode will be up before this one. ⁓ Toby's got seven kids as a CEO.

is also super fit. He's all on the jocco train. Like Toby's a fucking legend. Um, and then the third one is, is chewy. Nick Albin, um, which I'll have chewy on the show at some point. Cause chewy recently, um, they've got a kid now. Um, the three of you, the things you all have in common, one to one degree or another, you study slash contemplate philosophy in various. And I,

Josh (: 1:14:28

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:14:30

I do lump psychology under the broader category of philosophy. put psychology under philosophy before I do science. ⁓ as a psychologist, that is how I categorize it. But, ⁓ you all do that. You are all, ⁓ focused on family, but also your own physical health. You all do focus on being able to protect and provide, but not

Josh (: 1:14:35

Have to.

Same friend.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:14:57

from the perspective of I'm the man of the house. I'm the breadwinner woman. Your job is to just stay in the kitchen. That's why women have small feet so they can stand closer to the stove. Like you all aren't like that. You all are to me the epitome of what a true man is, right? Which is why I love all three of you.

but people listening don't know as much of your, your story as, as I do. One thing I would love for you to walk through if you can, if you're willing is

your dad being dad going to the Philippines, you coming back and living the life you feel that you're living on behalf of the other Filipino kids into taking care of him in his final days and how you see yourself and your relationship as a father with your sons now, because this is a story and just insights that need to exist in the world.

Josh (: 1:16:05

Man first, let me let me return that brother one of the Few individuals that I think about when I think about what a man could and should be You yourself lump yourself in there with me chewy and and your other friend I cannot and Toby Toby man there are there are a few few individuals I could probably count on one hand that I would lump in there and I appreciate you Lumping me in with those those those awesome individuals. So yeah, so I've told myself this story

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:16:20

Toby, Toby.

Josh (: 1:16:35

⁓ For a really long time goes back to that lineage level perspective sort of this broader sort of introspective ⁓ And let me just let me just start with I think on the road to becoming whatever a man is You got to get introspective At some point and you got to get curious about your inner experience. So there's that let me just let me just put that to the side, but the story starts ⁓ with a deep Gratitude and I don't know when that gratitude kicked in

But I realized that my life didn't have to turn out the way that it turned out. And in some ways, there are a whole bunch of multiverses where my life could have been a lot shittier. So I told myself, I can't really remember when the story formulated, but my dad was in the Navy, met my mom when he was in the Philippines. Yeah, had me, had my brother, got married, left Philippines, came back to the States.

At a certain point in my life, I realized that that story didn't have to go that way. So I started telling myself another story, two stories. So yes, in that first story, left the Philippines, came to West Virginia, had all the opportunities that I've had afforded to me, good public education, the opportunity to work within a good business, my uncle's business, and then the further opportunity to eventually take care of my father and then also attend college, yada, yada, yada.

The other story that I told myself was, dad could have just left. He didn't have to take us from the Philippines to America. He didn't have to do any of that. A of men just left. A lot of men just had children and they just left them in the Philippines. ⁓ That could have been my life. Once I realized that, I realized that, ⁓ I'm not just living sort of for myself.

I'm living for this alternate version of me that would never have had any of these opportunities. And to be honest, it's kind of funny when you think about the opportunity that I'm grateful for. A lot of people would have thought being living your whole life in West Virginia, what opportunities are you going to freaking get there? But I've had all the opportunities. Jesus, man. Comparatively, comparatively speaking, I completed, you know, I was the first in my family to go to college, first in my family to get a doctorate.

Complete that have a job do all those things and so This will just call we can call it a motivator if you want But this underlying story that I've told myself sort of compels me in those darker moments to go Uh-huh. Yeah, it this doesn't feel good right now. However things could have been ⁓ And probabilistically might have been worse than they are. So I don't know where that story came from

It just, it became a reality whenever I realized it was something in the work. Whenever I started thinking in probabilities, ⁓ whenever I stopped thinking so black and white, and I think that's another skill that you develop on your road to manhood. It's not just, ⁓ things aren't just either or proposition. They're gradations, and you have to start thinking in probabilities and gradations as opposed to yes, no, off, on, things like that.

So there's that story. And I think after I adopted that story and it became part of my identity, I became a better man. And then so fast forward to the other part of your question. So with that story, my parents got divorced when I was a teenager. 13, 14, I'm sorry, no, no, I was 16 and my brother was around 14. So they get divorced. And obviously, you know, where the kids...

This is sort of, you know, one of your trad divorces, I guess. Kids go with mom. Whatever that is. I didn't like that too much. ⁓ After several months or even a year, I just started staying at dad's house and eventually I just, I moved in with dad. He still paid child support and everything like that. It's just, I identified with him more. It's just the way it is. I identified with dad more. And, you know, the years go by. We get to work together at the bakery. One of the greatest set of years of my life.

not only to understand and develop the ability to be bored and then enthralled with your work, you know, making thousands of donuts over and over and over again can be boring at first, but then when you lose yourself into that, you develop this sort of state of flow that you get from working out, from jujitsu, from anything else. So that's a great thing to do. Find a job that allows you to get absorbed in the boredom. So I get to work with him and then he develops, you know, COPD, probably from his decades of

Smoking and then on top of that also being the mixer at the bakery white lung inhaling the flowers and things like that compounded So he develops the COPD then he develops ⁓ Glossopharyngeal ⁓ cancer he's got cancer in his in his face a little bit behind his eye ⁓ in his lung things like that and so Shit, that was the first One of her aside from my parents divorce that was the first shit my pants moments. I think I've ever had in my life whenever he got ⁓ diagnosed

⁓ And so, so, you know, fortunately he had VA benefits and and I got to I got to take care of him on this journey ⁓ through cancer and that's something I think that young men are missing too. You're the opportunity to care for something or someone beyond yourself that necessitates something more than the the emotion of anger to sort of fuel you. Anger couldn't really fuel me through

doing those things with my dad and for my dad. There's this nurturing part of me that was shriveled and atrophied that I didn't really even know about until I got to take him to all his chemotherapy appointments, take him to all his radiation appointments, to see him ⁓ wither a bit. To see a person wither is something that will develop... I don't even...

I don't even think I can call it empathy, but to watch someone you love and care about, whether in the hopes that they will get better, Jesus fuck, if that doesn't get you in touch with emotions that you don't normally play with, I highly recommend it to everybody. I do not wish cancer on anyone, but if you wish to develop emotions, care for something. Care for someone who is going through something and you will develop...

different set of skills that I think you need in the modern environment as far as being a man. So I think by way of taking care of my father through his first bout with cancer, we were getting ready to fight it a second time and then he passed away. I developed so many different skills, ability to identify my emotions and to be in contact with this nurturing side of masculinity that I didn't know existed.

that I wouldn't trade that experience for anything and it was horrible to see him go through that. Still wouldn't trade it though. So I think we need to go through things that make us emotionally resilient but those things are facilitated by being in contact with others. And that's where fucking the modern environment, where we are, just you know, you can turn inwards, you can watch what you want to watch, do what you want to do, it's easy to not have this

outward focus on other people and to be involved in their lives. so, greatest gifts of my life, I think I've told you that before, but taking care of my father through his cancer and by way of that springboarding me into fatherhood, now that I am a father, Jesus, man, wouldn't have been half the dad I am now if I didn't have that experience of already nurturing and caring for something, for someone that I do. And then there are a whole bunch of other little micro-lessons, I guess.

that I've learned along the way of being a dad. But yeah, so that's sort of that's the my inner monologue as far as the one of the stories that I tell myself and how that story of could have been left in the Philippines, how that just sort of fills me with gratitude. And then also how caring for my father built this nurturing side of masculinity that I didn't know was there.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:25:14

I love that story so much. like, again, like you and this story, cause this is one of the stories I think we told on the, the unaired podcast shit. ⁓ I think about that often about like, cause I think you said like, like you're, you're fine to like cry or some shit. I'm not like I straight up, I will actively fight crying. I straight up. one of my exes, she's, she's an ex for a lot of reasons, but,

She should be like, I just want to see you cry. And I was like, do you realize what you're saying? Like, do you realize that like you're actually saying, I hope something so bad happens to you that you can't compensate. Like that's what would make me cry. But she's an awful human being, but I digress. I don't, I am one of those like Neanderthal kind of guys of like, yes, I'm a psychologist. Yes. I've told other people it's important to cry. Yes. I understand the catharsis, but at the same time, every ounce of my being fights me.

to cry. Like even like, like, and like, honestly, like the older I get it, I'll it gets harder. Because it's like you have more lived experiences, like sometimes you'll be watching a movie, or there'll be like a really poignant moment in a show. And you're just like, man, like that's, there's a lot of depth here that I didn't get when I watched it when I was like 22 or something. And then like, like something will start to happen. And then like my whole body is like, absolutely fucking not. And then it's just like, like,

dry it up. And I'm just like, why? Like my fiance doesn't give a shit that I cry. Me crying doesn't do anything. I don't have this hang up about masculinity about it. I just as a person fucking hate cry. ⁓ but, but I think about you and the fact that you're just like, no, man, like I'm open with my emotions. Like I took care of my dad. Like, you know, I'm, I'm everyday grateful that, you know, I, I did, you know, we did get moved to West Virginia and shit. ⁓ but I think about that a lot. Cause like,

Again, you're one of the inspirations for me just, you know, on how to live well and how to be a good man and shit. But like, I think about that because I intellectually, I understand the value of, of, of being more emotionally expressive, but there, think part of it is like, so I don't tie my identity to it. Uh, and this is a whole other can of worms for another day probably, but like with ADHD. So like I was diagnosed ADHD as a kid.

I definitely still meet all most of the markers for it. That's fine. ⁓ but I think growing up when you have strong reactions to things coupled with, ⁓ impulsivity and when you are bigger, ⁓ than some of your peers, ⁓ coupled with for me going through domestic violence and shit and like seeing in a very aggressive, violent, you know, male figure,

Josh (: 1:27:44

Hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:28:12

you kind of learn to basically be like, I'm a bull in a China shop. I have to be careful. I have to control myself almost to a rigid degree. have to gray rock. I have to very much, you know, kind of keep my shit within due bounds. ⁓ cause I know what happens if I let it go. So you kind of go through life holding onto this leash of like, can never let this go.

because every single time I have let this go, I have gone too far. I have gotten too loud and now I've broken a social norm or I've gotten too excited and I've irritated somebody or I allowed my, my anger to come out and then I punched a hole or I did something else. Right? So it's just like, do you get used to that, that way of being? So it's like, I can't cry because a tear turns into

Josh (: 1:28:53

Thanks.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:29:10

Balling so I can't do that at all right and I told I told Rochelle told my fiance that one day she's like That sounds so sad that like you have to go through life like that. I was like, but that's the way I found a function is like That's that's one reason like I gravity to work stoces my Buddhism shit is like it's about emotional control not emotional suppression necessarily, although sometimes I do err toward that

Josh (: 1:29:36

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:29:39

but just control and say like, how will I choose to relate to this emotional state? What reaction do I want to have in this moment? And just, know, like Frankel or whatever talks about like the, the, the gap between like stimulus and response. Like there's a gap here that like you have the freedom to choose what you do. ⁓

I definitely err on the side of, of that stuntedness and intellectualizing it rather than, like, so yet another aside, another tangent when I'm talking about ADHD shit. So I took this, this public speaking training course is called ultra speaking. ⁓ love the guys. I'll have them on the show at some point. and basically it isn't about like the way they do an ultra speaking. It isn't about,

Here's how to have a script and like, you know, be a great orator so much as how can you bring more of yourself into every conversation you have so that it feels like a conversation, not a presentation. Basically one of the exercises was basically you, you talk about whatever the fuck you're going to talk about. And then they put a number on the screen and that number indicates the level of intensity or emotionality you have when you're presenting. And it goes from like zero to 10.

And it's constantly changing so that you have to like upshift or downshift throughout to teach you when to like, you know, be low and slow for impact. But then other times I'd be really up there to like get the audience heightened and shit, right? So that you have some, some in a good way, some emotional ability in your delivery. I tried it and I was great at from like a six to an eight. I

Josh (: 1:31:14

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:31:30

couldn't go to a nine or 10. Um, and I could sometimes go to like a zero or a one, but one of the guys, Tristan Tristan was like, I forget his exact words, but he was basically like, this seems like something you do all the time in your life. You can't hit these emotional highs. And I was like, you motherfucker. I got, I totally like it. I was like, you motherfucker. I was like, why are you trying to turn this into a therapy session? He was like, why can't he was like, give me a 10. was like, motherfucker, this is my 10. He was like, no, it isn't.

Josh (: 1:31:54

you

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:32:00

I was like, my 10 is someone else's seven because I can't, I can't actually hit that nine or 10 on this scale because I've spent my entire life creating a ceiling at seven or eight. He was like, that's your fucking problem. You avoid these emotional highs or lows. was like, I could have fucking told you that at beginning of this goddamn conversation. But the fact that this motherfucker who's not a psychologist was like, Hey buddy,

Josh (: 1:32:22

you

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:32:28

Seems like this is indicative of, of larger shit. I'm like, you motherfucker, but like, how do you deal with all of the just emotional experiences of, you know, dealing with your dad, but now being a parent, being a professional, being a husband, dealing with day to day stress, doing the creator thing, how do you, what is your relationship with your, your emotions and just the internal

journey.

Josh (: 1:33:07

In some ways it's similar to yours. feel like, ⁓ now that you're talking about it, I feel like there is a ceiling to my emotionality and I wish I explored sort of the ranges like you were talking about in that ultra speaking course. You the lows, being low, being intimate, whatever, and then being able to get really, really high. But honestly, thinking about it, thinking about, I hate to bring this back to YouTube, but a couple of comments that I had early on, it's just like, hey man, you know what you're doing, you're really well spoken, you know what you're talking about, but.

Where's the energy? I'm like, you know what, shit man, fuck, you're probably right. You're probably right about that. Like I have developed just like this very, you know, when it comes back to the, you know, just my love for philosophy, just like this terse laconic, just flat affect straight delivery. It's not even that it's functional. It's that my, like I fucking just like, I feel that on the inside. I'm just like, yup, that is the way to be. And I'm still truly not talking about lowercase stasis and just stiff upper lip bootstrap shit.

Just like my relationship with my emotions, I truly embody that if something is out of my control, I need not worry about it. And having adopted that position for so long, the emotional waves, storm, current, it's this big now. And that's only after years and decades of understanding that to put your energy into things that are outside of your control,

including emotions that arise in you, fuck, that's a losing battle. Ten out of ten times. And so I don't think that the fact that I don't get in contact with certain emotions as frequently as some individuals is necessarily a negative thing. It's that my relationship with my emotions ⁓ is that that...

I don't allow them to dictate what I ought to do. ⁓

And then also whenever sort of some of these more negatively valenced emotions, sadness, anxiety, know, worry, regret, shame, guilt, I have developed a default. Again, know, heuristics, good heuristics to develop. Whenever I feel those emotions, I turn into them. That is my rule. You know, having rules, like you know your rule about saying, I have a default, no, right? That's the default. It allows me 24 hours. That's what I tell everybody. With my emotions.

I have this default where I turn in to anxiety, turn towards sadness. And with sadness, I mean, that could be as simple as, you know, I think about my dad, start feeling these emotions. And as opposed to flipping on a podcast, doing something else, motherfucker, I will, I will blast an Aerosmith song that allows me to not only ride that wave, but fucking crank up the amplitude on it and just allow me to feel it because our emotions are

I mean, they're evolutionary signals. They are a signal that we ought do something, and it's a signal that should be paid attention to, taken seriously, but not necessarily listened to as a cold hard fact, right? Your emotions aren't facts. They are signals that should be taken seriously, in my opinion. And so I think a way that I experience my emotions is just whatever it is.

The avoidance of that emotion is what I am... I will not do. I allow myself to turn into it and begin becoming very introspective. And so the sort of peaks in my emotions naturally don't get as high because they're not as scary to me anymore. They don't spin out of control. I don't continue to avoid them. So honestly, man, my emotional highs and lows aren't that high and aren't that low because I've constantly turned into them. ⁓ I don't know if that's...

necessarily the best answer to it, but I would say for any young man out there getting curious about your emotions, allowing yourself to turn into those emotions and feel it fully and understand that just because you are feeling an emotion fully that does not dictate what you need to do next. That was one lesson in life that I learned way back that I am grateful for. Your emotions don't dictate your actions, ⁓ but they are good signals.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:37:36

So one thing with, with shit like SSRIs and shit, and at this point you are more up to date than I am. Cause I've, you know, I left therapy a handful of years ago, ⁓ with SSRIs and a lot of antidepressants functionally, they act as a compressor, right? So like, like w w with like sound and music and shit, like you put like compression onto like an audio file, like an audio waveform. So you, you,

tamp down the highs, but raise the ceiling from the lows. And you're just sort of in this like mid band, a lot of antidepressants that's functionally what they end up doing is like, yeah, you're not as depressed because it raises that floor. So you don't have the same lows, but what it often does for people is it also reduces the highs. So you just sort of exist in this mid band. I think a lot of us,

Josh (: 1:38:10

Yep.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:38:34

have created our own emotional compressor.

Josh (: 1:38:38

Hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:38:40

just without, you know, pharmacology, psycho pharmacology. like.

what again when I did ultra speaking and you know, Tristan, I were talking shit and I was like,

Not that I didn't know it, but because I thought I had a good enough handle over it that like it wasn't noticeable. But, and again, like Tristan is a fucking pro with this shit, but like the fact that Trist was like, let me just fucking poke this very specific thing. I was like, it just got me thinking of like, am I so afraid of experiencing lows that I prevent myself from experiencing highs? Am I fully living?

to the fullest I am capable of, or am I simply existing within a narrow band of emotional, not awareness, but emotional experience and emotional resonance? Like, am I actually allowing myself to feel all the things and am I fully present? Cause like, like for example, ⁓ I don't celebrate a whole lot of things, ⁓ for a couple of reasons. one,

Josh (: 1:39:48

Hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:39:53

One is definitely from almost like a place of like not insecurity, but it's definitely compensatory of like, don't get your hopes up of, or like, you know, growing up.

Josh (: 1:40:01

Hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:40:07

growing up poor, you, I, I learned don't ask for a lot of things. I mean, kids ask for shit regardless, but like once I like realizing all fuck report, like it was just like, don't ask for things because that places the burden on your parents. So they're going to feel guilty if, if they can't get it for you, but then they're going to break their backs to try to get it for you. I don't want to be a burden. And it's like, this thing might happen, but it might not. You're better off to not get your hopes up. Right.

or just other things you want. It's like that is out of your control. You control how much you hang your hopes on it. Right. And then with Buddhism, right? Like desires are root of all suffering, right? When you want something and you don't get it right, or you can't have it again, stosis and Buddhism. So like I don't, when I don't look forward to things very often, I don't like allow myself to get excited for it. But the issue is like a lot of times it's the anticipation

that is more activating than the actual thing happening, right? It's the anticipation, like, this thing is going to happen. It could happen tomorrow's the day. It's that excitement, that anticipatory excitement that is part of the experience of the thing. And then the thing is like the payoff, right? So foreplay climax kind of shit. Don't just want to go in raw dog. But,

But if you don't allow yourself to, to engage with that anticipatory phase, the payoff isn't as much of a payoff because it didn't have that, that, that on ramp to it. But that coupled with the fact like, okay, next, like, okay, I did it. The thing happened. Cool. I have to move on to the next. And part of it is like, like the goalpost is always moving, but it, but it's also a like,

Don't rest on your laurels. This could go away tomorrow. Moving on. And it's just like, do I ever allow myself to just enjoy things fully or am I so ⁓ preoccupied with the possibility that it might not work out? So I don't want to get my hopes up. And then I go up high, which means I drop down super low.

Isn't it better to just have this emotional compressor on? And like I've thought about that since, and that was like, I don't know, like a year ago. Um, and I, have definitely put an effort to allow myself to feel more things and, deal with the consequences of it. But my default is still that emotional like compression.

Any thoughts on that?

Josh (: 1:43:02

I think that's a lot of, I'm gonna generalize here, I think that's a lot of default, just that emotional compression. Dude, I was sitting here, like, if I wasn't actually nodding in my mind, I was like, yep, maybe for different reasons, but that emotional compression, and like, I think you are also pointing to like, sort of these internal drives, again, what it is to be a man. I think some of these things are possibly unconscious, like, know, ⁓ hunger, sex, right? Drives, fucking.

drives mediated by testosterone and other hormones, but still drives, most of which are just running in the background, right? I think there's also this, ⁓ you know, status drive, this drive to move forward, to progress. Maybe that's a better, better verbage, progression. Ooh, fuck me, man, progression. I have this internal thing that says, is that a process that can be iterated? Awesome, I'm gonna keep refining it.

Whatever the fuck that may be, I may set, you know, ⁓ time points, ⁓ put on a natural bodybuilding show and promote it, enjoy it all the way up until that point, I suppose, but the second that is over, I'm already thinking about the show next year. Fuck, did I actually enjoy that? Did I enjoy the lead up to it? Why is it that I automatically default to like, all right, well this happened, this happened, this could have been better, could have did this here, thank you all so much for coming, I appreciate you helping, and then, you know what, we could have did this, and then next year I'm gonna go get a storage unit.

yada yada yada I think it goes I don't know if you said this you said no you said between stimulus and response there's a space I want to introduce another quote until you make the unconscious conscious it will drive you and you will call it fate and fuck man until we absolutely make that unconscious drive because I think it's in a lot of us like as man to not be in the moment and enjoy what's going on but to either plan for the worse or

to seek higher ground is also another sort of unconscious internal drive, planning for the worse, seeking more, moving forward. And I think it pulls us out of, you know, the present moment. And I think that's sort of the, that's the one thing we need optimize ⁓ more for being present, being where you are, being where your feet are. ⁓ So no, I definitely resonate with everything you said, maybe for slightly different reasons, but like there are.

there are some times that I am not present because I'm already thinking about the next thing. And so that definitely resonates.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:45:29

So you said your reasons are slightly different than mine. What are yours?

Josh (: 1:45:40

by reasons four.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:45:42

the emotional compression.

Josh (: 1:45:45

Hmm.

It's a multi-factor answer. think also as dudes, we need to acknowledge the role of testosterone in sort of sex drive and then also emotional ability. Like if you have not dieted for a bodybuilding show and you decide to enter into a bodybuilding show and you are a natural bodybuilder, lots of caveats there. If you get lean enough at a certain point, you will probably go hypogonadal and you will feel what it is like

not have the normal range of testosterone that your average male will have and you will experience quite a bit more emotional lovility. Hey! Because testosterone is going to constrain some of that range there and make it a little bit easier to keep your sort of compressed range as you were talking about. And so there's that. But I think for me that compressed range is a byproduct of testosterone, philosophical underpinnings.

And then my desire to only play in playgrounds or play in games that I can iterate from. YouTube's an iterative game. Promoting a bodybuilding show is an iterative game. Bodybuilding itself is an iterative game. My first, the biggest mistake I made my first bodybuilding show was not planning for three or four bodybuilding shows that year. By putting all my eggs into one basket, I was unable to iterate from that.

And that is the lesson I took from that first bodybuilding show. You don't plan for a show, you plan for a season. That turns that one thing where you put all your hopes and dreams into, into something that you can iterate off of. So I think for me, having this constrained range of emotionality is a byproduct of me only playing in playgrounds where it's not black and white, it's not off and on. ⁓ I no longer have these negative emotions associated with failure because

Failure is a springboard to the next thing. So that's great. And it keeps this sort of compressed range for me emotionally, but that also means that I'm always thinking about the next thing. Always thinking about the next show, next episode on YouTube, next research this, next that, next, next, next, next, next. And I will say the downside of that is, you know, how present am I in any given moment? So I would say that's mostly

⁓ So I guess my compressed emotionality is a byproduct. Does that make any sense?

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:48:28

for sure.

And I think that the balance of striving to be better.

in the future, but being present and being enough now is a really, really hard thing for high achievers to figure out. Because the reality is like, you never reach your potential because the more capable you become, the more potential you have.

Josh (: 1:48:54

Hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:49:06

Right? So like it's, it actually is a moving target. It's like, it's like mastery. You don't achieve mastery. Like I deeply believe mastery is impossible to achieve because the way I define, I personally define mastery is there's, there's nowhere else to go. There's no improvement left. You have mastered the thing. You can do all things. You know, all things within this. That's probably way too broad or grand of a definition of mastery.

But the pursuit of mastery will make you infinitely better, right? Similar to perfection. You never achieve perfection, but striving for perfection will make you significantly better. As long as you recognize the improvement comes from the chase, not the actual achievement. you will never be perfect, right? Even with bodybuilding. Exactly. But even like bodybuilding, there's really no such thing as like the perfect physique.

Josh (: 1:50:01

Happiness in pursuit. Yeah.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:50:09

in that like there are judges criteria, right? But it could always, you could always be maybe a little bit leaner or your own frame could be different. You don't want to, you can't affect your frame or your genetics, right? Like some people naturally have like bigger calves or bigger forearms or whatever, right? There are certain things that even the person who everybody who's won any bodybuilding competition in 30 years, those people are going to look really different, right?

Josh (: 1:50:20

Mm-hmm.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:50:37

Because the meta changes or techniques change or what people look for changes. Like there's, there's no perfect body, perfect physique, perfect anything.

So like a big thing that I do like with the show with the other stuff that I do is, like, how can you kind of get closer to reaching your potential? Right? What does it mean to do that? And I definitely think it is worth reaching toward your potential, but you know, some of the people I worked with, for coaching and things, it's like I've, I've built a 10, 30, $50 million business. I've done this, I've done that.

Josh (: 1:50:58

Hmm. ⁓

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:51:18

I'm nowhere near reaching my potential, right? Because it's like, well, once you made $10,000, you were then more capable of making even more. Then you hit a hundred million, 10 million, a hundred million, whatever, a billion. And that's obviously one metric. You never reach it because the more capable you become, the more capable you become.

So I, so I think that like those of us who see the potential we have are never satisfied with where we're at because we know how much more capable we are and we don't want to waste the time we have. We don't want to waste our potential. So if I'm not striving toward my potential, I'm wasting it. And there's this really fine line, this fine

balance of I am, I recognize I'm not as good as I could be, but, and and I am actively working to be better in, in strive, but I am also deeply grateful for what I currently have and how far I've already come. And I am working to be present in the moment because what's the point. That's question I ask all the time. It's like, what's the point? So like, like for me, I work from home. I have, you know, this office upstairs,

And then it's really, really easy for me to work all day and then go downstairs, make dinner, cook, train, whatever the, the evening looks like. And then we sit down on the couch and then I pull up my laptop and I'm like, I'll work a little bit more. And it's like, what's the point? What's the point of working? If it takes me away from the people I want to provide a good life for, if it takes me away from the people who make life worth living, what's the fucking point?

of doing all this. How do you navigate that, that tension?

Josh (: 1:53:15

fuck man, there's no tension. Sorry, no, that's not a good answer. No, it's just because it's just like my time in the morning, it's blocked off and protected. Block off and protect your time. Fuck man. We're trying to balance being present. We're trying to balance, you're talking about family. I could work a little bit more, could do a little bit more research, could find another research paper, could read another book. shit, there's my Amazon cart. There's this, there's that. And for being in a world that vies for our attention.

as much as this fucking world does and it's crazy to think that it's gonna get even worse in the future. ⁓ You have to find a way to block off and protect your time and for me the easiest way to do that is to have defaults in place that allow you to do that. So it's sort of like environmental control like we were talking about with dieting. Like the easiest way to engage in a particular diet isn't, I mean yeah it could be prep, it could be this, it be that, but it's also

keep the shit out of your house that you don't want in your house. That give you problems, that give you issues. Similarly, I know that if I have my phone with me at family time, I'm not gonna be a present dad. So at six o'clock, I put my phone away. And then I have the evening until we go to bed. And then I don't have to think about being present. It's a default, man. I give myself as many defaults as possible. Because I

I have empathy for myself as this evolved creature who is enticed by things that give me a dopamine rush and acutely are satiating but in the long term provide nothing that I want, nothing that is aligned with my value. honestly man, I think, again, this is me and... ⁓

not my biases, but these are the things that I've benefited from, having defaults for the evening time so that there is no tension between what you acutely want versus what you want in the long term, that's the most beneficial thing that I think that I've done to help protect the most important things, which is, know, time with my boys, time with my wife. Am I perfect at it? No. Sometimes I have my phone, sometimes I have headphones in or something like that and I go, shit, you know, and then I got to put my phone away. But I think having ways to protect that time

⁓ is something that we all need to learn how to do. How are you structuring your environment in such a way that it makes it easier for you to default to the most important things?

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:55:52

So then if somebody's listening, they're like, okay, Josh, they're Dr. Williams. That sounds great. How do I start that?

Josh (: 1:56:01

How do start? Okay, well, find the things that are taking up your bandwidth. First, let's be real here. Start with your phone. Look at how much screen time you got going on that bitch. I know it's a lot. I know you're looking at this camera and it's a lot. You might not have checked, but you can check. And then set limits for yourself. It's just like dieting or training. ⁓ If you want to be a more present person, if you want to be a more present father, if you want to be a more present husband, and

and you know what times you have to spend with your family.

Find a time to get your phone out of the room. For me, it's six o'clock. Between six and eight, my boys go to bed at around eight. Therefore, I go to bed a little around eight. And so I've already developed sort of that schedule and I get two solid hours. For you, if you don't have any children and you're just thinking about, you know, a significant other, spouse, you all go to bed around 10. You want to protect some time from eight to 10. Put your phone on the charger. Get it away from you. Set up.

⁓ Turn off notifications. That's something that I do. Awesome updates to iPhones. Like I no longer, I hear nothing after six o'clock. It's nothing. I have to make a conscious effort to go back to my phone to see any type of signaling because that's another way that devices pull our attention is through these fucking signals that we get. Jesus, man. You got to find a way to shut those off. So shut off all the signals, get it out of your environment. But first,

Be something that you go back to a lot, or at least in the past, Corey, ⁓ being intentional. What is it you want? You want more time with your spouse or your children. Pick some time. Doesn't have to be two hours. It could be an hour, but be intentional about it. Say, at this time, I am with my family. I am with my spouse or significant other. And then do the things in your environment that allow you to default to that immediately. So for the person listening to this,

If you just want to start with, you know, half hour, an hour a day, pick that time. Whatever that time is, you know your schedule better than I do. Find the time, schedule it, pick a spot for your phone, get the notifications off.

Josh (: 1:58:22

And then also, I only know these things, my wife and my kids are important to me because I've explicitly outlined my values.

If you don't know what your core values are as a human, as an individual, it's going to be hard to figure out what to protect. Like, you need to know those sort of upfront. I think we have these natural instincts to move towards things like family, but if you haven't taken your time to just figure out what your own personal values are, that's probably step number one. Think about the people you admire. Think about characters in works of fiction that you admire. Think about superheroes. Think about this. Think about that. Think about...

the deeper reasons why you admire these figures and just make explicit what your values are because they orient you, you live them, and then you can begin to develop these goals and habits around them. And that's why like values work because they're this orienting sort of function and they allow you to orient yourself in any given moment. So define your values, those will help.

you figure out what's the most important thing and then you can start allocating your time accordingly.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 1:59:33

I love that. have so many more questions, but we're already at pushing two hours. one, one quick piece I will, I'll add to that. there are these things called behavioral nudges. ⁓ all a behavioral nudge is, is something that nudges you to engage in a certain behavior. So just having your phone in your peripheral nudges you to check it. So when we're talking about defaults and environmental design, you can really, and values work, it's like, okay, what behaviors do I want to engage in throughout the day?

Josh (: 1:59:40

Please.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 2:00:03

What nudges can I put in place that facilitate that? But also what things can I remove to, avoid the rock nudges in the, in the wrong direction? Right. ⁓ So that's another piece for all that. ⁓ Where can people find you?

Josh (: 2:00:09

Yep.

two places. YouTube, just look up Dr. Josh Williams. So I'm Dr. Josh Williams on YouTube. You can find me for all bodybuilding, bodybuilding, psychology related things on YouTube. I do teach some mental skills as it relates to general fitness and dieting and nutrition and, you know, developing the habits and systems and a lot of things we talked about today. So that's a good spot for ⁓ bodybuilders, general fitness enthusiasts and people interested.

in the more psychological aspect of training and nutrition. So that's a, that's a great spot to find me. I would go there first and then on Instagram, I am at strength ritual just because I just haven't changed it to at Dr. Josh Williams. so you can find me on Instagram at strength ritual, but really check out the YouTube. ⁓ also again, I do, if you are an individual who really enjoys bodybuilding, the, ⁓ raw intensity training application from Cliff Wilson.

doing a mental rep series on there where I help bodybuilders, you know, again, back to what we were talking about, identify some of these emotions that may come up during contest preparation and make it difficult to complete your contest preparation. So you can find me there. And if anything, just connect with me on any one of those platforms. And I'd love to, ⁓ you know, just help any individual who is struggling in, in fitness, in, bodybuilding.

in psychology, whatever, and anything ⁓ men and masculinity related. Like I said, it's a unique interest of ours. Again, and you brought up an important point, like there needs to be a... It's funny, it's going around now, there needs to be a Joe Rogan of the left. Well, there needs to be an Andrew Tate of the... Well, just whatever the fuck not Andrew Tate is. Like that's what we're searching for in the sort of men and masculinity space. It's the adjacent to the Joe Rogan of the left. There needs to be an sort of anti Andrew Tate.

Corey Wilks, Psy.D. (: 2:02:12

Agreed. Yeah. And I'll have links for everything in the show notes and shit. Um, we didn't do it. We didn't even get to like performance, psychology, evolutionary psychology. So we definitely have to, I'll have to have you back on, um, for all that, but dude, this, this was fucking great. Hope y'all enjoyed listening.